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EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

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Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#541

Post by ko27 »

ynniv wrote: post #529
ko27 wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things Your argument is ridiculous. People didn't choose iPhone because they wanted to deprive themself of an option to switch browsers engines or payment vendors either. People actually chose iPhones for a thousand other reasons.

No one chooses phones based on browser engines. Why anyone is upset with Apple improving security by only allowing executable pages in Safari is beyond my comprehension.

That's my point. People won't stop buying iPhones whether Apple allows or forbids those things. So the argument made by the comment I replied to, that people chose iPhone over Android because of browser engines, payment vendors... makes zero sense.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#542

Post by bun_at_work »

dingleberry420 wrote: post #532
martimarkov wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem is that users can be tricked to do it. Used to happen to my parents all the time on Android. They'd install random apps and the website will "guide" them how to install this app by going to settings and enabling "untrusted developers". This is my issue with all these devs screaming at apple. Your customers chose a product for whatever reason. Don't like it? I don't care - respect their choices. It sp…

What happened to personal agency? Let people make mistakes, you don't need to infantilize them.

People are easy to manipulate at scale. The idea that people are rational agents who can make educated decisions as consumers is deeply flawed. Yes, people _can_ make educated decisions, but more often than not, they don't have the requisite knowledge to make an informed decision. Letting those consumers get scammed because they aren't technical enough isn't a good solution to complicated problems.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#543

Post by vorpalhex »

Bud wrote: post #515
vorpalhex wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market, through competition.

Is "the market" going to magically provide all the substantial benefits of an Apple-run store for apps, too? No. It's not. "The market" is going to say: sorry users, fuck that, y'all can just magically research all this and provide your own security and privacy from here on out. Which is impossible, of course. Result: much poorer user experience for the vast majority of users. Which is why Apple did it their way in t…

The app store had 85B ($85,000,000,000) gross revenue in 2021. Apple made 30%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/296226/annual-apple-app-...

From https://revenuesandprofits.com/how-apple-makes-money-underst...,

> The devices and platforms help Apple lock-in the consumer into its ecosystem. First, Apple achieves hardware lock-in with the devices. Then, it achieves software lock-in with operating system software, application software, and third-party software and apps. Then, iCloud helps Apple achieve the data lock-in.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#544

Post by SiempreViernes »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #393
cycomanic wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we stop pretending that Apple has the users best interest in mind? They just want to be the gatekeeper for lucrative applications/functions so they can charge for it. That they somehow convinced apple users that it's somehow in their interest just shows how good their marketing is.

As a byproduct it does give a measure of privacy so what's it to you if apple users just don't care about your idea of freedom? I hope this European legislation at least lets apple customers opt-IN to these new features or choose the old way of doing business. I would prefer to keep access footprints to a minimum to stuff like NFC, contacts, hardware APIs, apple pay, etc on my phone.

In the EU privacy is assured by actual legislation in the form of the GDPR, and I expect Apple can get away with demanding compliance with that set of laws before putting something in the appstore if they really worry about privacy.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#545

Post by emn13 »

dalbasal wrote: post #534
hyperpape wrote: post #175

There's several very good provisions in this legislation (3rd party payment processors, non-preferential treatment for 1st party apps), there are several that have a mix of upsides and downsides (sideloading is one--I personally like knowing that Facebook can't ask people to sideload some privacy destroying crap on iOS). Then there's: - Allow developers to integrate their apps and digital services directly with those…

This is what you call an awful dichotomy. Security Vs Autonomy... weaponized. I agree with you. I also agree with the other side though. Allowing these monopolies to squat all the bottlenecks in protocols of media and communication channels is also intolerable. It is perfectly reasonable for you as an individual to prefer privacy. It's perfectly reasonable for a regulator to strike at a problem. Look... the can't pro…

It would indeed be bad if the requirement were to scream YOLO and allow all apps to always access potentially privacy eroding features like NFC. But surely the proposal isn't that - is it? If it's merely that the OS be required to be _allow_ NFC features just as it does for first-party apps, what's the risk exactly here?

I think these kind of special permission requests work at least sort of reasonably on web-browsers, and less brilliantly but acceptably on android. Yes, users will need to think before clicking OK, but the way those dialogs often work (and surely can work) means that they're no longer conveniently able to throw up take-it-or-leave-it modal dialogs. It's at least a little better than the nonsense that is an EULA.

But the real critical issue here is that we should not let ourselves be held hostage by apple. Yes, apple hasn't made it _at all_ easy to secure third party access to potentially privileged functionality. But... that's their _choice._ They choose to make a really high first-party moat, because that's convenient for them. But the alternative isn't throwing users to the wolves, it's actually thinking about how to limit access securely even while delegating access. If we have to wait until big tech decides to do that out of the goodness of their heart... we'll die waiting.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#546

Post by [deleted] »

Bud wrote: post #518
Karunamon wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full devils advocate here, but the argument I've always heard is that the play store is a lot less arbitrary and restrictive than the App Store, so there's less reason to want to go outside of it. Apple locks out so many useful kinds of software that there actually may be enough momentum for real alternate app stores to proliferate.

I have never, in 15 years on iOS, run into a single "kind of software" that Apple has supposedly "locked out" that I actually wanted or needed.

[deleted]

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#547

Post by dingleberry420 »

bun_at_work wrote: post #542
dingleberry420 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to personal agency? Let people make mistakes, you don't need to infantilize them.

People are easy to manipulate at scale. The idea that people are rational agents who can make educated decisions as consumers is deeply flawed. Yes, people _can_ make educated decisions, but more often than not, they don't have the requisite knowledge to make an informed decision. Letting those consumers get scammed because they aren't technical enough isn't a good solution to complicated problems.

No post body was provided.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#548

Post by concinds »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #60
amelius wrote: post #13

It will be interesting to see what dark patterns Apple will come up with to resist this. I imagine every time you open Firefox you will get a popup window saying "Do you want to use Safari instead?"

Google already does this in its iOS apps. When tapping a link in e.g. Gmail, it won’t just open your default browser, but instead open a menu asking you to choose your default browser or Chrome. It has a “remember this choice” toggle but it shouldn’t be there at all… just obey the OS default browser setting.

That's good. Choosing a default iOS browser is completely undiscoverable to average users, and unlike on Mac, can't be done within the browser itself.

Try installing Chrome/Brave/Edge on iOS. They'll suggest setting them as default, and kick you to the Settings app. It's supposed to bring you to the Chrome/Brave/Edge app settings within Settings.app, where you can set the default browser; but 50% of the time, it'll fail, and will just open the Settings app without bringing you to your browser settings (you'll just be staring at whatever you were last doing in Settings.app, whether that's iCloud settings, manage storage, whatever you were last looking at). That bug has been there literally since Apple introduced default browser settings on iOS; maintaining it is clearly deliberate.

It would be great if Apple built an identical menu to Google's into iOS when it detects multiple browsers are installed, and let users easily choose their default browser. Even better would be Windows XP-style "browser choice".

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#549

Post by saiya-jin »

tsimionescu wrote: post #468
joshstrange wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Happy that I might be able to install something else than Safari. I hope you like Chrome then. > I want the Gecko engine on iOS. It will probably exist in some official capacity (not just the open source wrappers like IceWeasel or whatever they call it) but it will probably get about as much love as it does on Android which is to say not much at all. Also the market share will be <1% if I had to guess which means n…

As a happy exclusive user of Firefox on Android (and PC), I have yet to meet any sites except legacy corporate apps that had any sort of problem with FF in the last 1-2 years at least.

Same here, only positive feedback. ublock origin keeps all ads at bay so internet looks like a very usable place (aka same as on my desktop). I mean just for removing all youtube ads I would install it on my socks if possible

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#550

Post by Barrin92 »

n8cpdx wrote: post #417
vivegi wrote: post #365

I love this just for these three rules: > Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet. > Allow developers to offer third-party payment systems in apps and promote offers outside the gatekeeper's platforms. > Ensure that all apps are uninstallable and give users the ability to unsubscribe from core platform services under similar conditions to subscription. and restr…

People don’t choose iPhone because they want those things, they choose iPhone because they want to be protected from them. Look at the Lumenate app that was just on hacker news yesterday: - Android users are complaining about having to create an account to use it - iOS users just pushed a button and didn’t even have to share their email or make a password - iOS users who subscribe have one place to manage their subsc…

then don't install third party apps on your iPhone and only install Apple software? Like I literally cannot understand the thought process behind this. Someone needs to physically restrain you from installing an app that you don't want?

Nobody is forcing you to do anything, other people just get more options. People here on HN support this because people here like software freedom instead of being treated like infants.

Running any executable you want on your device is the foundation of free personal computing without having third parties control what you can do with your machine. Nobody is putting their hands on your iPhone, it's the other way around, Apple doesn't get to put their paternalistic hands on mine from now on.

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