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Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

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Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#541

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

For devs, it's hard to debate this point. It's even hard to explain to others what the value of the flow state is, where you're just one with the code and you feel like you're making progress. You really need to not be interrupted, and you need comforts like your own chair, food, and clothes. I'm mostly coding these days so 100% WFH suits me just fine.

Yesterday I talked to some people I used to face, ie they were taking the phone at another business years ago when I was trading with them. They are all against working from home, having continued to go to the office during the lockdowns.

The point they made was that some things really benefit from being interruptible. Some things even benefit from not being recorded. Immediacy really matters for certain things like gauging who you should approach with some deal.

What also matters is being able to weigh the mood. A lot of what we call political decisions depend on this kind of weighing of what the team wants to do, and is hard through zoom.

Finally there's the problem of juniors. In finance you'd learn stuff when there was a quiet moment and someone more experienced seemed like they had a second to explain something to you. Unscheduled but valuable training.

These folks basically took the opposite view of what you seem to have, and decided that people who like WFH are basically not productive and are just phoning it in, knowing that it has gotten harder to hire people willing to be in the office all day. It's kinda interesting the take that people on opposite ends of the spectrum have of each others motivations.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#542
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have much more bargaining power, yes. But you’ll also be bargaining as part of a group that includes Joe Useless, who sits in the next cubicle over and ostensibly fulfills the same role as you. What if you're the Joe Useless on your team and you don't know it? A lot of people here seem to think they're the 10X dude but what if they're the 0.1X dude lol. What if you're really the 10X dude but your manager thinks…

I think the 0.1X guys (though I wouldn't use that term) tend to not be here as work is just work for them, not a hobby they are absorbed in at all hours. Not saying that's healthy but I'm sure being on HN has a strong selection bias on 10X people :) I've worked with many people with varying degrees of competence and I find that the "go out and satisfy your curiosity" is strictly an above average thing. The average pe…

Those that want to rewrite everything in the cool tech of the day, or want to TDD everything or write Electron applications work maybe not at 0.1x but certainly 0.5x of the ability of a normal programmer.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#543

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

I think I would prefer to work in an office over remote solely because it's harder to meet new people in the company and make good connections remotely.

I'd like to have some professional connections that carry over from my current company.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#544
post #479
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Remote also requires a lot of rethinking of team dynamics, work allocation and just plain old making sure stuff is done. Make no mistake, WFH may be arguably better and more pleasant from the employee perspective, but it makes projects more difficult for the rest of the…

> Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Ad an IC, I would have potentially believed this if the past two years where everyone was working from home wasn’t anything but unbridled success for the tech industry. Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now, and yet there are really still some manage…

If by the tech industry you're including startups, then those all firms with money due to future expectations of success, not actual success.

Then you've got firms like Apple, Google and Microsoft with so much financial momentum they could lose half their employees tomorrow and their quarterly results would go massively up.

The cases where WFH matters are all the firms in the middle. Non tech firms, for example. Firms that are mature, but which don't mint money hand over fist.

I've worked from home for years and it works fine for me, but I also have a friend who's a senior tech exec at a non-tech firm. Sometimes he invites me round for BBQs on a workday, where he is "working" but no actual work gets done. Sometimes he naps in the afternoon. My brother is a tech executive at a software firm, his work consists of a few meetings a day and the rest of the time he chills, takes care of his kid or works on side projects.

For the employee? It's great. For the employer? Yes, you can view it purely transactionally, as in "we pay you for results" but in reality contracts aren't worded that way because it's impossible to write down in an understandable and conflict-free manner. So people are always being paid for time spent, and they then don't implement their side of the contract whilst expecting the firm to do theirs. It's tough, I don't know what the answer is, but to not see the employer's side of the story isn't right.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#545
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's worth it. It's the way I am and I seem to have as much choice over it as ivy chooses growing up a wall. I've never been hungry by choice and I've always had a roof over my head, and I'm grateful for both of those things, but let's look at something I do know: "..could mean losing ... maybe even your mind" Yeah, BTDT. A lifetime of mental health problems culminating in a complete ... I dunno, brea…

> and has no redeeming value Hmm, the one redeeming value of my anxiety (and the accompanying fear of imminent death) is that it makes it much easier to contemplate things I wouldn’t otherwise contemplate. I’d still rather do without that, but I guess it’s interesting enough I can call it redeeming?

I suppose it depends. A redeeming feature of death is you never again wake up with a stinking hangover. You can find a positive everywhere I suppose. I don't know.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#546
post #144

WFH is screwing young workers by eliminating the mentorship, learning by osmosis and relationship-building that has propelled many knowledge-based careers. If Goodfellow were truly a good fellow, he would recognize the higher purpose.

bullshit

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#547
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here's to you, good luck in your journey. make it worth it "If you're going to try, go all the way. Otherwise, don't even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery--isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a t…

I don't know if it's worth it. It's the way I am and I seem to have as much choice over it as ivy chooses growing up a wall. I've never been hungry by choice and I've always had a roof over my head, and I'm grateful for both of those things, but let's look at something I do know: "..could mean losing ... maybe even your mind" Yeah, BTDT. A lifetime of mental health problems culminating in a complete ... I dunno, brea…

I am curious at the number of downvotes to this which I take as disagreement, but with what? Have others had years of mental health crashes and found it a great positive in the end, or what? Genuinely would like to know.

TIA

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#548
There are few points I do not see much discussed so far:

- remote work, for jobs eligible to such model, does need a paradigm shift, it's not sustainable trying mimicking the in-office model in a "virtual" world. I see almost no discussion about that, especially in work division, outcome measuring, hw&sw vs hosted platforms etc terms. IMVHO that's a hyper central point to mainstream WFH for all eligible jobs;

- remote work administrative aspects from beyond-borders (different tax systems, rules, TZs, ...) and "global wages" vs "local wages". Again that's HYPER important because before arriving to something established and well-run on scale enough to stabilize a new model we must expect tremendous backfires in revenues terms;

- hybrid mess handling where companies have offices, with gears etc and have to move stuff back&forth AS WORKERS to handle less people, but still some, in the office and some from remote;

- where to live, considering local services since we do not eat from remote do not have "virtual remote connections" etc, and how such areas can evolve in a reasonably short and mean timeframe because if we choose to relocate we choose typically with a certain care. Personally I choose few years before covid to leave a big city for a mountain area, served enough, near enough to the "civility" etc, I'm VERY happy of the choice even if I miss a significant slice of local in-person acculturated environment for discussions, interactions, surely social life is better here, but at a low cultural level, just parties, not much real technical, political, philosophical discussions aside are possible since simply there aren't enough mass of acculturated people nearby to do them. That's another central aspect: how can our demography can evolve if we are not all together at scale like before?

- how a remote-first society can be organized, at least a general idea.

Just see sabre rattling and crushing between two party, one for one against, is spectacle, but of no help.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#549
post #165

This actually seems a bit crazy to me. You're one of the most important figures leading the charge on cutting edge technology at _the_ industry leader...and you resign because they ask you to come to the office.

It's crazy that Apple would so easily throw away someone "leading the charge on cutting edge technology" just because they want him to show up at the same place every day.
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