Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#541

Post by bradlys » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:48 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #526

richwater wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?

That one does seem the most questionable. Looking at an ethnicity map of Cupertino, it seems like in-office requirements would favor white and asian employees, as they tend to live closest to the Apple office. The other items in that list seem pretty uncontroversial to me though.

White and Asian bias in tech has almost everything to do with candidate pool - very little to do with bias and preference for in-person work.

People who are willing to work in tech and are in the US are overwhelmingly white and Asian. I mean - 70%+ of my current job is Asian. White is a minority. Black, Hispanic, mixed race, and much else is all less than 10% combined. Mostly due to candidate pool…

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#542

Post by fartcannon » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:49 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #437

fartcannon wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of tech savvy younger folks are perfectly capable of making relationships entirely online. I'm not even young, and I've done it myself. 25 years ago, I made several friends on Yahoo Chat! who I have never seen in real life but speak with regularly. Many more over the years via builtin boards. These days discord exists and it's a primary social source for a number of kids. These kids could enter a fully WFH work…

This is spot-on. Nearly all of our younger hires have their social networks _entirely online_, and most of our older employees are in a similar situation albeit with a few token IRL friends. That said, I work in game development and I suspect that causes some selection bias.

Could be. I know a lot of the older people in my not-game-development field won't join work functions organized in online chats. You have to call them, or send them an email.

Out of curiosity, I hear a lot of negative things about working in game development. How do you like it?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#543

Post by bradlys » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

solenoidalslide wrote: post #398

richwater wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?

"Who is willing to relocate to the bay area or Austin in the first place? Who are the ones getting priced out? Demographics/census, speaking." I think that is the argument being made.

They don’t work in tech though… So, doesn’t really make sense.

People being priced out aren’t working in tech…

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#544

Post by superlopuh » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:54 PM UTC

jsiepkes wrote: post #68

post_break wrote: post #39

The time theft of traffic, costs of fuel and wear and tear on your car, the cost of lunch if you don't pack a lunch. It all adds up when having to go back to the office. I hate that we had to return to the office because it was like getting a big pay cut. Even the 3 day a week thing, it's like what's the point? We can work from home obviously, what more does going in 3 times a week accomplish other than punish you, s…

> The time theft of traffic, costs of fuel and wear and tear on your car, the cost of lunch if you don't pack a lunch. I'm all for remote work but calling it "time theft" feels a bit weird. You knew these things were a requirement when you signed your contract, right? If you didn't want these things then why didn't you either made a point of them in contract negotiations or simply went to a company that allowed remot…

Coming over from Paris where I took a bus to work for 30-40 minutes on some days, I thought it would be more of the same, but a bit longer. Turns out that both highways through silicon valley are bumpier in places than Paris cobblestone, and that if you combine the variance in bus times, the walk from my place to bus stop, and the walk from bus stop to the office, it doubled my overall commute time. I didn't know how tired I would be at the end of each day when I signed the contract, was incredibly happy with the end of the commute when the pandemic started, and am glad to be back in Europe now.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#545

Post by ThalesX » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:58 PM UTC

thaway2839 wrote: post #520

fartcannon wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you strongly believe the office is valuable, surly there are others who agree with you. Those people will be there. Everyone else can work from home.

Game theory shows that systems involving multiple people making decisions without coordination can very easily settle into subptimal equilibriums. And that's almost certainly gonna be the case here.

What about time spent commuting?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#546

Post by lghh » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #509

lghh wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it ridiculous? It seems very, very obvious to me. Younger = less likely to have a family so commutes are not as big of an issue + the many responsibilities of having a kid that are easier to manage wfh Whiter = this is the one that I have the least contextual evidence for off the top of my head, but feel safe assuming it's at least partially true given the other factors Male-Dominated = the kid issues raised a…

Citations requested.

For what? That younger people are more likely to not have kids than people further in their career? That women’s careers tend to be affected more by having kids than men? This are “the sky is blue” type facts. They don’t really need citation.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#547

Post by simion314 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #499

simion314 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But without going into a parallel universe where you always worked remote in a fully remote team you can't actually say for sure, you are just guessing with a giant and obvious bias. On top of that what worked for you might not work for other people in other life situation and other geographic locations.

Oh I 100% know - there are a handful of spontaneous hallway conversations that started as idle chit chat and veered off in unanticipated directions that altered my career path. I can see them clearly since they were literally life changing. None of them - not one - would have happened virtually. There would never had been a reason for me to interact with those people other than I just happened to be in the same physi…

>None of them - not one - would have happened virtually.

And is it possible that this is not a universal thing? Maybe some people can solve problems or have ideas in a different way? Or maybe in the parallel universe you might have maybe less financial/career success but something even better (less stress more happiness) anyway I can tell you that as a developer you can solve problems, you can help the team from remote too. I have almost 20 years of coding experience only on remote but won't bet that 100% an office job would have been better or worse, we never know.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#548

Post by incone123 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

skeeter2020 wrote: post #410

21723 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you're included as disabled. You have a neurological makeup that increases the difficulty of securing and succeeding in employment. You have almost certaimly been given fewer opportunities than you would if you were neurotypical and good at politics. Private-sector politicians and frat boys love open-plan offices; most of us are neutral at best, and with age most people come to loathe them.

> Private-sector politicians and frat boys love open-plan offices Not sure what a "Private-sector politician" is, nor what your intense hatred of open-plan offices has to do with collocated workplaces in general, but I can assure you that the reasons people split across the remote vs. office spectrum is far more diverse than your generic bucketing of "white male jerks == office love; everyone else hates them". It's k…

I think private sector politician is intended to mean someone working for a private company but who embodies the worst of politicians: big on personal visibility, short on doing the work.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#549

Post by rastignack » Tue, May 03, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

azth wrote: post #141

> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does anyone take tossing around words like this seriously anymore? I am pro working remotely, but this is just ridiculous.

This is downright racist.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#550

Post by searchableguy » Tue, May 03, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

thaway2839 wrote: post #515

EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

I honestly don't understand some of the ideas people have about remote work. Remote work may be great, but there will be challenges associated. For example, so many people are going about saying that they should be paid the same whether they work in SF or Topeka. And the assumption is that means people in Topeka will be paid SF salaries. And that may be true for a few years while we are still inside an extremely tigh…

I think what you are missing is cheaper places don't offer the same quality and standard of living.

Although this may force people to skip the overrated bubbles.