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Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

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Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our society just doesn't have the concept of racism it seems because of the exceeding rarity of people who aren't European or Asian. "Slave is an Ephebian word. In Om we have no word for slave," said Vorbis. "So I understand," said the Tyrant. "I imagine that fish have no word for water." -- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

Either way, people here aren't discriminated based on their race. Never were. This particular problem seems to be uniquely American because of their history. We do have a word for racism by the way. It's, unsurprisingly, "расизм".

(Not a historian, so fully expect half of this to be wrong in one way or another.)

> Either way, people here aren't discriminated based on their race. Never were.

That is untrue.

You could argue the “pale of settlement” (instituted shortly after the annexation of parts of Poland made Jews more than a rounding error) was discrimination based on religion, not ancestry (and indeed it seems to have had some resemblance to the suppression of Old Rite communities, which did not have any particular ethnic composition as far as I know). But the distance between the two is easily bridged (one only needs to look at Ireland to see that), and by the 20th century it was, thoroughly, as evidenced by things ranging from Stalin’s Jewish resettlement attempts in the 30s and 40s (whence the “Jewish autonomous region”) to the ethnic quotas and heavily biased exams at the Mekhmat and elsewhere in the 70s and 80s (supported not only by a mass of mostly-forgotten university functionaries, but also by some of the genuine greats such as Pontrjagin, cf You Failed Your Math Test, Comrade Einstein).

(That last part is why any intentional bias or quota in admissions gives me the chills. Nothing will go wrong, surely.)

It’s not only the Jews, of course. The common euphemistic appellation for the situation on the Caucasus, “tensions”, hides a morass of mutual hatreds that is centuries deep, though again the results of Stalin’s disastrous resettlement efforts are best characterized as “fallout”, and the two Chechen wars intended as election publicity for Putin did not help. But a close look at the 19th-century colonization of the region as described indirectly by authors like Lermontov gives the impression that the whole thing was pretty fucked up even then.

(If you want to dismiss these places as “not really Russia”, you are proving my point, even if there are senses in which that statement is true.)

Shall we talk about the undocumented and (thus) vastly underpaid Middle Eastern migrant workers who have sustained most of Moscow’s municipal infrastructure for the last two decades? (Though perhaps not for much longer, given the recent monetary restrictions.) Who have reversed much of its despair- and alcohol-fueled collapse of the late Soviet times? That the low-wage jobs should go to them may not be not explicitly xenophobic (except inasmuch as any system of employment controls for foreigners is), just the result of the how the USSR was organized and how it fell apart; but I have an acquaintance who has adopted a child from there, and their experiences both with officials and with strangers off-handedly insulting the child or the family sound pretty straightforwardly racist to me.

And, well, let us be honest and acknowledge the mutual feeling of otherness between people from Central or Northern Russia and those from West Ukraine, Belarus, or even the south of the country as it currently is. It can range from having a stereotypical funny-talking character in jokes to toppling monuments, rewriting history, and going to war, but it’s been there for a long time, and the distance between these two extremes isn’t nearly as large as I’d like.

(Navalnyj has distant relatives in Ukraine? Everybody has distant relatives in Ukraine. If you want commentary on the Golodomor and whether it fits here, though, you’ll need to find someone qualified enough to talk specifics about it.)

This is not at all an exhaustive list. (What about the Tatars? The Russian Germans? The postwar expulsions, tacitly accepted by the West, that turned Königsberg into Kaliningrad and Danzig into Gdańsk? I’m sure there are things I’ve never heard of as well.) It might be that there is no “racism” in the precise North American mold in Russia or around it, but that is only because that mold is uninteresting (and to the extent that the opposition to it is built around its incidental features, that opposition is missing the point, although I would not claim to be the one to make it the Right Way). Xenophobia towards people inside or just outside the country, now that we have plenty of, and so does everybody else living on the ruins of an empire.

That is if the economic structures originating from serfdom in the Empire or from internal migration restrictions in the USSR are not enough for you. They might not always have an ethnic bent, but is that really that much of a consolation?..

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#542
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being told I use too many adjectives, my word choice is too heavy for my audience or that I used too many clauses is useful. Being passive-aggressively told "blacklist" is a no-no word is not. If you were really clever, you'd let the user set a "sensitivity" level for the writing from "normal human speak" to "corporate PR approved".

It depends on who you write for. As a non-native, non-American speaker, I'd be happy to know if I'm accidentally offending the people I'm writing to.

But you aren't. Saying that "Motherboard" is offensive is basically misinformation.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On landlord I can’t think of a proper synonym. Property owner and proprietor are broader categories of what a landlord is. They don’t mean the person you’re paying rent to for your housing.

To play along with this game, one can say that replacing "landlord" with "property owner" is offensive to those with ancestors who were deemed property.

It ought to be offensive to women because it suggests they can't be landlords-- a word which is already perfectly gender neutral in American English as far as I can tell.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a market for 'help you write english better' tools that spot things like grammar errors. For example, if my english-as-a-second-language eastern European subordinates feel self-conscious about their english, they might find an automated tool helpful - where a professional journalist would be better served by their own judgement. The 'inclusive language' thing is just weird though.

Just like Google is not an actual search engine but a "recommendation" engine that prods users into getting recommended just what Google needs to recommend ("did you mean...?") this is not an actual writing assistant but a "write (and think) the Google way" mould

[deleted]

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#545
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here (though not a latino and not in the US, so I wasn't yet under any pressure to use it). The "-inx" suffix (when pronounced "inks") somehow makes the word sound more objectifying, sexist and even lewd than the original words.

> though not a latino and not in the US, so I wasn't yet under any pressure to use it To be fair, I've literally never heard anyone try to pronounce "latinx" outloud. And I live in one of the most stereotypical liberal/left-wing cities in the US (Seattle). The usage of that term seems to be mostly confined to a vocal twitter/internet minority and written form (whether online or in promotional materials for certain th…

> To be fair, I've literally never heard anyone try to pronounce "latinx" outloud,

I guess you quit listening to NPR before they started using that one. It's ubiquitous now.

What was it that made you quit?

> Don't mistake fringe vocal minorities on the internet for an accurate representation of what it is like to actually live in the US.

They I agree, though this particular example is not just internet fringe.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#546

I wonder if this is an example of not knowing your audience (or rather assuming one's self represents a wider audience than it does). The people vouching for this at Google are likely product marketing managers, public relations folks, social media managers, etc. All they do is write corporate garbage all day, and much like we have "nit"s in PR's for formatting, variable names, etc; they likely have similar reviews t…

Actually I've seen an English linter to help you maintain a passive voice for papers, remove waffle words and unnecessary fluff, etc. I'm not sure I can find the exact one I'm thinking of, but wasn't too bad overall, it spotted errors and made helpful suggestions. It was cool too, because it would read from stdin and integrated into vim pretty well with a few lines in my config.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#547

Virtue signaling is a hell of a drug. I tried to explain to someone online that the word black has many meanings, not every use of black is about people. Oh man, in the end I was "taught" that just by not accepting his ideas I was a racist person. My experience with this type of person is very bad. They are ignorant people, defending points without understanding the points. They are very aggressive and work in packs.…

You mean to tell me that all this time black people were the reason the black plague, black mambas, and blacktop exist?

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#548

I wonder if this is an example of not knowing your audience (or rather assuming one's self represents a wider audience than it does). The people vouching for this at Google are likely product marketing managers, public relations folks, social media managers, etc. All they do is write corporate garbage all day, and much like we have "nit"s in PR's for formatting, variable names, etc; they likely have similar reviews t…

I support it and I don’t work for google. I like this feature that encourages more empathy in this strife and hate filled world.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#549

Controversial suggestion but can the California folks just do their own bay area version of products? The rest of us around the world never asked for any of this weirdness Will it suggest "peace be upon him" in Islamic countries next? If not, why not? At least that's an actual religion unlike whatever this weirdness is. How is it inclusive to export this thinking to places that don't want it? Words are really just wo…

> Words are really just words. But they're not though. Words are products of, and inputs into, people's culture and modes of thought. Which is exactly why giving this much global power to one unelected politically extreme group of people is so dangerous.

Imagine you work in Wakanda and slave was s'mballa and master was m'chatka and one day the science department said ok we're calling it m'butu by default instead.

Does it shape anything for you? You're just doing your 9-5 building T'Challa's HUD for his panther helmet as an immigrant worker who barely speaks the language. If anything it just makes your life more annoying when the Wakandan scientists rattle off instructions to you and you're barely keeping up. They are just words.

Perhaps in Wakandan culture the change is significant and shapes their models of thinking but we are talking about terminology changes for all of planet Earth and beyond. Why not do some soul searching and come to terms with your ugly history on your own instead of dragging everyone into it.

(I am using "you" in the general sense, not directing it at anyone in particular)

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#550

Who was asking for Woke Clippy? Is Google just bored and completely out of ideas? They seem increasingly disconnected with what their users actually want.

I think a grammar checker that warned about cross-cultural confusion would be pretty valuable in many writing contexts. It would best be constructed in that light: rather than moralizing or being activist just noting the fact that some text has a non-trivial odds of being understood in a way different than you likely intended.

So for example, a writer of British English may want to be warned that "Bring me some fags when you return" may be misunderstood by American readers.

This hypothetical checker might still warn you about "master"-- for example-- as there is now a sizable contingent that finds it controversial. ... but it would equally warn you against terms like "birthing person" which is considered by many to be biologically reductive to the point of being offensive, and by most people to be at least highly loaded.

Such a tool would almost certainly not caution you against "landlord".

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