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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#541

Post by BoorishBears »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #508
BoorishBears wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because B borders on nonsensical?? Like what bizarre circles are you stewing in that you hear "They're great because they inherited the right genes for VO2 max!" more than you hear "They're great because they put in the hard work and effort! That's dedication right there!" And even if we focus on this truly fringe group that you seem to run with, the genetic factors like height are also readily overriden by ine…

I skimmed the paper you linked. It establishes a correlations between nutrition and height. But the analysis specifically adjusted the data 'for age, gender, ethnicity and birth weight', i.e. - the paper didn't claim that nutrition could fully override genetic factors, and - they acknowledged that adult height is correlated with ethnicity (hence the need to adjust for ethnicity before calculating correlations)

This isn't even missing the trees for the forest, it's missing ocean for a fish.

Like did you need a paper to realize that environment doesn't *fully( override genetic factors? That we're not born as some blob that morphs into shape based on the current lon,lat?

This isn't about height... this is about the notion that people associate athletic excellence with genetics over environment and personal effort... maybe in Nazi Germany?

And then to top it off, the point you're using as a "gotcha" still shuts down your line of reasoning but you fail to realize that... The study needs to adjust for ethnicity not just because of genes, but because of socioeconomic factors associated with ethnicity!

The point of science is to examine what you set out to examine. You have one study that shows the tie between nutrition and height survives adjusting for ethnicity. Here, have a study showing how socioeconomics are tied to nutrition: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/87/5/1107/4650128

And then from there go ahead and put two and two together. Nutrition is a statistically important factor even when adjusting for race, socioeconomics affects nutrition... and how do socioeconomics tie back into race?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#542

Post by lordnacho »

tylerhou wrote: post #535
leereeves wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy parents will still define higher standards, because they will send their kids to private schools where more advanced math is taught (e.g. Phillips Exeter Academy teaches calculus to all students and offers linear algebra, statistics, and discrete math to advanced students.[1]). Instead of opening up opportunities for all the kids, this will ensure that no poor student can compete because the courses won't eve…

As someone who went to Exeter and did higher-level math there, you didn't have to even start calculus in order to graduate. Also, the calculus taught there is roughly the same level as a decent public school. And you can probably get the same level of education at a local college. After retaking calculus at Berkeley (which I admit is not exactly a local college), IMO they teach it here more rigorously (e.g. they intr…

Agreed. At some point not long after high school, the syllabus explodes and there's just a huge amount of topics to learn. There's no one thing that you must learn, and there's nothing that you won't be able to learn, it's just that you probably won't have time to learn all of math/science/engineering.

The way I'd put it is the kids all need to learn things close to the pace that they can go. If there are kids who can go really fast, let them do that, find a teacher who teaches real analysis or whatever and let them get on with it.

On the other end of the scale, kids with difficulties need help too. Dyslexia needs to be discovered early, and anxieties related to learning need to be resolved.

Whether you think algebra is coming in too late or too early is not really the issue IMO, the idea of one-speed-fits-all is the real problem. I always wondered why education wasn't just a bunch of ladder steps. Pass a given course, get put on the next one asap. For all subjects, without cross-restrictions. For instance I'm still a relative beginner in creative writing, and I'll likely stay there, but I should be able to take some advanced math and coding courses.

I'll probably end up implementing this myself for my older kid via tutors, since he's interested in a lot of things above his year, but I think everyone would benefit if the system worked this way.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#543

Post by barry-cotter »

xsmasher wrote: post #332
jdkee wrote: post #33

"A key sticking point in the approval process has been the framework’s recommendation that teachers refrain from labeling students as “naturally talented” in math. This has led to accusations from parents and educators that it holds back “gifted” students." Along with NYC mayor deBlasio seeking to terminate that city's gifted and talented education programs as well as Virginia's recent approach to "equity" by deconte…

The podcast "Nice White Parents" makes a good case that gifted programs in NYC were essentially used to create two separate-and-unequal systems of education for black and white students inside the public schools. If you don't want to call that a "racist" system we can call it an unequal system or a caste system; but the trend you're seeing is an effort to fix that system. The people who were (unknowingly?) on the PLU…

> The podcast "Nice White Parents" makes a good case that gifted programs in NYC were essentially used to create two separate-and-unequal systems of education for black and white students inside the public schools.

And let's pretend Asians don't exist. Affirmative action is about keeping Asian numbers down. So is getting rid of gifted programmes.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#544

Post by polaris_mars »

gumby wrote: post #502
userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

It is so ironic that you mention Germany,where kids are split (at age 10, 12?) into hauptschule (lower ability), realschule (medium ability), and gymnasium (higher ability).

To think ramanujans of this world would benefit from lower standards is also having no idea or never knowing one in real life.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#545

Post by rsj_hn »

xsmasher wrote: post #332
jdkee wrote: post #33

"A key sticking point in the approval process has been the framework’s recommendation that teachers refrain from labeling students as “naturally talented” in math. This has led to accusations from parents and educators that it holds back “gifted” students." Along with NYC mayor deBlasio seeking to terminate that city's gifted and talented education programs as well as Virginia's recent approach to "equity" by deconte…

The podcast "Nice White Parents" makes a good case that gifted programs in NYC were essentially used to create two separate-and-unequal systems of education for black and white students inside the public schools. If you don't want to call that a "racist" system we can call it an unequal system or a caste system; but the trend you're seeing is an effort to fix that system. The people who were (unknowingly?) on the PLU…

> The podcast "Nice White Parents" makes a good case that gifted programs in NYC were essentially used to create two separate-and-unequal systems of education for black and white students inside the public schools.

I'd say the podcast is a lot more racist than the school system, since it worries about people of the wrong race learning too much. But in terms of educational caste systems, it's true that education does create a caste system because we have no good trade school or vocational infrastructure.

To address that, provide more opportunities for students who don't require advanced math skills to succeed by establishing and funding quality vocational training, rather than preventing those who are faster at math from getting the best education they can.

Don't worry about students learning too much. Don't assume that every area has to have equal racial outcomes, because no area will have equal racial outcomes.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#547

Post by agent008t »

The problem is that the US, and California in particular, has no shortage of brilliant engineers from all over the world willing to come and work there and to do research.

As such, there is no incentive to make the best of home-grown talent. There is no skin in the game.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#548

Post by dathinab »

polaris_mars wrote: post #544
gumby wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

It is so ironic that you mention Germany,where kids are split (at age 10, 12?) into hauptschule (lower ability), realschule (medium ability), and gymnasium (higher ability). To think ramanujans of this world would benefit from lower standards is also having no idea or never knowing one in real life.

The system you refer to is and in many regions had been phased out as it turns out that the splitting around 6th grade isn't really working well.

Also even before you had schools which covered multiple of this schools and allow students to "move" between them, sometimes in a per-course level.

There also always had been ways to get the same degree as from a gymnasium even if you initially ended up on a hauptshule, through it was a often shitty path and potentially took you a bit longer. While a few people which state out in a realschole doing it was the norm, for people on a hauptschule it was very very very unlikely.

Don't get me wrong the German school system is a mess, especially if composed to some of the Nordic states but it still beats the US.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#549

Post by barry-cotter »

akomtu wrote: post #141
_-david-_ wrote: post #25

If racism is actually causing blacks and Hispanics to not make it into advanced classes then why are Asians making it in?

US admits only the top 1% of Asians with its immigration policies. Same for most other countries. If average rural Chinese folks could immigrate to US, we'd see a more "equitable" picture.

The Asian advantage in education long pre-dates selectivity in immigration. You see the same pattern in the children of Asian peasants. See every generatio of Asian immigrants to the US since teh California Gold Rush.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#550

Post by nicoburns »

topspin wrote: post #431
simion314 wrote: post #117

I am not from US so don't interpret my comment trough US blue vs red or similar lenses. My observations is that students learn at different speed, the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious, at each step some student will fall behind, then if he is behind he will have more trouble comprehending the next topic and in the end you get a student that does not know the basic ru…

> My observations is that students learn at different speed The pejorative used for structuring curriculum and resources based on this observation is "tracking" and aside from special needs and other narrow exceptions it is thought to be a great historical injustice that has largely been eliminated from public schooling in the US. Now we look forward to ending the injustice unequal funding due to differential tax bas…

Tracking isn't necessarily a pejorative. It's still considered a good strategy here in the UK (although it isn't used universally).
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