Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#541

Post by rc2634 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:46 AM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #107

zz865 wrote: post #92

One problem is there really is some risk with the vaccine. At a population level its best if everyone takes the vaccine - there are huge benefits, but unfortunately a small minority gets hurt. Its best if everyone else gets vaccinated except for me. Of course when everyone wants to be that exception the vaccination doesn't stop community spread so people get sick. The problem is the hard truth of "take the risk becau…

But there's a bigger risk with the virus. The selfish calculus should also be to get vaccinated.

The calculus is different for tens of millions people who acquired natural immunity from previous infections before the vaccines even existed. I am one of them. There is no good reason for me to take the risk with the vaccines because it will only increase my immunity marginally.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#542

Post by xkbarkar » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:47 AM UTC

Wow an entire thread full of civil opposing opinions and discussions. I feel sanity has returned.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#543

Post by pbourke » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:49 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

> The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use.

Ironically the run on masks had begun months earlier. I snagged a box of N95 construction masks in late Jan 2020, and they were totally gone everywhere by early Feb

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#544

Post by darepublic » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

I believe a Joe Rogan podcast of the time, that I watched on youtube, featured an expert who claimed masks were basically useless

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#545

Post by rc2634 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

moistly wrote: post #353

Disappointed to see so much bald-faced lying in the comments. I really don’t understand why the most egregious liars aren’t given the boot.

Because HN wants to treat its users as adults who can judge for themselves whether they should or shouldn’t believe something they are reading?

Why do you want to censor and stifle discussions that could possibly convert the person telling the lie because of some misunderstanding to change their views and accept a different perspective?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#546

Post by xkbarkar » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:53 AM UTC

I feel the discussions i. the thread are of better quality and more informative than this ignorant opinion piece. All he seems to claim is that if governments had trusted the public they would have locked down sooner.

The headline make this sad little piece seem more interesting than it actually is.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#547

Post by jml7c5 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #495

sk2020 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a data indicating masks are not effect source control for respiratory illnesses. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article I think the single study that supported cloth face coverings of no particular standard of performance was a mechanistic study that depends on the belief that respiratory illness spread is a direct function of the distance water droplets of an arbitrary threshold size travel…

> is a direct function of the distance water droplets of an arbitrary threshold size travel from a simulated sneeze. Which, of course, is so obviously true it needs no supporting evidence. Except it turned out to be false, the primary mode of transmission for sars-cov-2 is aerosols that can spread throughout a room (hence the need for good ventilation), not droplets that quickly fall to the ground (which was what soc…

I may be reading it wrong, but I believe they were being sarcastic with that last sentence.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#548

Post by betterunix2 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

dgfitz wrote: post #358

gravity13 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there's a lot of propaganda premised on the idea that "both sides are bad", it's just "two sides of the same coin," and it's always the people who know nothing about politics and just want to appear superior without putting any effort or though that give this insidious ideology it's breath of air.

What do you mean propaganda? Trump was a fool and a shit president, and Bidens ratings are rapidly trying to reach Trumps. They both suck. Congress is a fucking joke. I'll gladly accept your insult about not knowing anything about politics, wrong as it is. I choose not to insult you back.

You may not approve of Biden's job so far, but Trump's presidency was on an entirely different level of bad. Trump's failure to fully divest himself of his business interests left doubts about the intention of every decision he made. Trump's administration was filled with criminals. Trump managed to drag white nationalism from the fringes of society into the Republican mainstream and even had white nationalists and their sympathizers working in his administration. A good argument can be made that Trump led and continues to lead a fascist political movement -- Trumpism exhibits all of the characteristics than define fascism and the argument is mainly one of degree.

There are plenty of things to criticize Biden over, and I am sure that people with conservative points of view are not big fans of his various policies. However, we can at least go to sleep confident that we will not wake up to news that the President had tweeted some radical shift in US policy that blindsided his entire staff and administration. I would love to hear people criticize Biden for policy decisions -- the fact that Biden has a well-defined policy agenda to criticize is itself a huge improvement.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#549

Post by wolverine876 » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

> Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got a huge swath of US citizens that will never take the vaccine.

These people have free choice, and they are making a bad one. They aren't victims; they are the problem, infecting their neighbors and allowing a pandemic to spread.

Much more significantly, I'm not sure how we can omit the overwhelming messaging from a certain political segment of society, and is spread by leading news outlets, governors, members of Congress, the prior administration in the White House, and very many influencers in every domain. The messaging claimed the the pandemic wouldn't happen, that the virus is inconsequential ('like the flu'), the vaccines are dangerous, etc. That omission is a standard rhetorical technique of that political segment, which is to always attack - always keep your opponents on the defensive.

If your theory was true, we'd see vaccine denial across society. Instead, AFAIK, there's a very strong correlation between political beliefs and vaccine denial. These people clearly, IMHO, choose politics over health and they have what they choose - they have their political movement, at the cost of health - their own, and millions of others. Again, they aren't victims; they make their choices, and are responsible for the consequences.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#550

Post by nkssy » Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:57 AM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

Unpopular opinion: I'd not let either side off the hook. Politics caused multiple screw ups in the pandemic response. Still is.

Partisan politics aren't a good idea when forming public health policies. Nor is fear. Especially the fear being used for political gain.

The most enlightening aspect of the whole COVID debacle was just how bad politicians are with science. Democrats criticised vaccines just for political reasons. Republicans did also.

As for censorship, that never leads anywhere good. If the public discourse cannot openly mock bad content because it has already been "disappeared" then we are not better off.

I'm just hoping this pandemic doesn't cause a meltdown into outright authoritarianism. We've already seen what nazism and communism did and I'd rather not have society try either of them again.