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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

ethicalsystems.org

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#541
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Applying those labels to people who are objectively and overtly acting that way is not the problem. The problem is that way too often people are assuming it's there. It's a presumption of intent, "racism is one possible explanation for your viewpoint, therefore I somehow /just know/ that you are a racist person". Example: every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread ass…

>Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that) It's hard to say what all the issues of individual motivation are in every case, but there is evidence that racism plays a factor. [0] It may not be because of overt racism, the officers involved don't have to attend klan rallies for other racially biased policies like redlining to have a broad effect on po…

> People in a state of confusion or crisis sometimes don't have the option of being cooperative with the police.

I hear your point, and I'm all for mercy, patience, trying to understand and help people in crisis, etc. But at the same time, choices have consequences, and you can't escape that. This isn't victim blaming, it's just a law of nature. It is a tragedy if someone gets into such a state of confusion/rage/whatever that they, say, try to stab someone to death, but it's also not wrong for someone to step in and protect the intended victim. And if the act of saving the innocent harms the attacker, that's awful, but the fact remains that the attacker would not have come to harm if not for their earlier choices.

> [0] https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

I haven't had time to look at this study in depth, but a cursory glance suggests they are almost completely ignoring what is probably the most important factor, and that is the rate of violent crime (the second most influential data point would probably be socioeconomic level).

They show a correlation between race and death at the hands of police, which is indisputable. A causal relationship is TBD, though they brush up against it by stating, "This pattern is similar to the distribution of violent crime".

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#542
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions. That's not a theory, that's just restating the question! Why is the distribution the way it is, and should we make efforts to change it?

Maybe, but I still think there's an important point in there. We (society) do a lot of handwringing about CEO and engineering jobs, but these aren't even remotely the most gender-asymmetric careers out there. According to [1], "Locomotive engineers and operators" are 92.3 percent male. I'm willing to bet that if you can "fix" that problem - or even conclusively identify the cause - gender imbalance issues in other fi…

I have never in my entire life met a female plumber, yet somehow I doubt that's caused by the inherent patriarchal bias in the ****-fixing industry.

Note: I have never even met a women that aspires to trying to be one.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians have always been favorable to "the freedom to have a different sexual orientation"; it's not a "new" issue that was only discovered recently. However, conservatives and libertarians have always known that the freedom to live one's life as one desires can never extend beyond the point where others' freedoms are curtailed. Otherwise it's not actual freedom, but mere licence.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Please explain. Are the first sentence and the second sentence connected? If so, I am lost.

Take any marginalized group. Call it group A. It is almost always the case that there are prominent advocates for group A, who profess (at least at first) to be pushing for equality for group A, but what they really want is special pleading for group A. The libertarian position is that equality is desirable; special pleading is not. The people who advocate for special pleading, once having dropped the pretense of being merely for equality, tend to argue that special pleading is now necessary to compensate for the centuries/millennia of oppression group A have suffered in the past.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting fired off a couple tweets is unprecedented though.

How? If I go to the town square and yell at crowds about how one race is superior to the others, I should expect some repercussions. Why is it different, now, just because it involves computers?

You don’t even have to be shouting slurs. Donating to the wrong cause is enough.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#545

I am so tired of constantly hearing about politics at my workplace. Politics have already made their way into the tv shows, music, video games, and online forums that I enjoy. At least let me disconnect from that outrage-fuel at work. It also affects team cohesion. I can easily collaborate with just about anyone when I don’t know their political beliefs. As soon as I find out someone holds opposing views on a topic I…

> As soon as I find out someone holds opposing views on a topic I feel strongly about, I can’t help but dread my interactions with them.

I'm of the opinion that all views that my colleagues have that are not related to the work at hand does not/should not affect how we work together at all.

I've been hearing my colleagues personal political opinion, the spectrum goes to both ends. I personally don't mind at all, I'm more sensitive to code quality and bugs.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#546
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western society seems to have gotten the idea that "debate" is either talking heads trying to shout over each other, presenting prepared arguments to random unprepared people and claiming victory when it takes time to respond, or simply presenting opinions back and forth without trying to justify them. This is tied to the (independent but both incorrect) notions that whoever has the last word in a debate is the winne…

Unfortunately, structured competitive debate these days has gone off the rails. At least, college debate in the US has become ridiculous. Moot court and mock trial retain some semblance of argumentation. But you would have to reinvent the kind of formal debate you’re imagining.

You may be right; I've been out of that loop for a rather long time now.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#547
For many progressives, workplaces are inherently political by their very structure and processes. In this perspective, to ask a progressive to "not bring politics to work" is telling them that the established political norms shall be victorious (without debate). It's not like conservatives don't do virtue signaling: there are catch phrases like "respect for capital" and "work hard" that are just as prevalent in the workplace, it's just that those phrases may not be seen as being political.

In my opinion, there is room for many political perspectives in the workplace, moreover, they can all be correct at the same time. In particular, once people stop talking in abstract generalities, but in concrete actions regarding concrete challenges, many of these perceived differences melt away to reveal far more consensus than political posturing might indicate.

In my experience, the best way to handle political speech in the workplace is to ask the speaker to contextualize their perspective into a concrete action that they'd like to be taken, taking into account all of the moving parts and stakeholders. At this point, the ones who have a serious point to make have an opportunity to present a process improvement, or be educated about considerations they are not thinking about.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#548
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that) It's hard to say what all the issues of individual motivation are in every case, but there is evidence that racism plays a factor. [0] It may not be because of overt racism, the officers involved don't have to attend klan rallies for other racially biased policies like redlining to have a broad effect on po…

Cooperation is no guarantee that you won't be extra-judiciously murdered without consequences either. We have plenty of examples like Philando Castile to put the myth of "just cooperate" to rest.

So? There is no guarantee of anything, for anyone. But in terms of risk management, you can take some extremely simple steps to reduce the risk to approximately zero. Here's "the talk" that all parents can have with their kids:

1) Do your best to avoid breaking the law or associating with people that do. 2) If you have a police encounter, cooperate.

Does that /guarantee/ anything? Of course not. But follow those two simple rules and the odds of getting killed by police are /effectively/ zero. Yes, there's still a chance, but there's always a chance (for everyone, of all colors). But follow those two simple rules and you'll probably win the lottery or get hit by lightning first.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you a bit here, but this feels like a good place to express something I've been having trouble with. My parents raised me to do my best to neither take nor give offense. Most of my peers as a child were taught the same way. Obviously we're not Vulcans; We will sometimes inadvertently give offense, or respond emotionally to something that may have been meant innocuously. Yet so much of what I s…

I think it just looks like this, mostly becuase of twitter. I've never seen anyone in real live interpret a statement in the most offensive way imaginable and not accept correction nor explanation. The chilling effect is undeniably though.

I've never seen anyone in real live interpret a statement in the most offensive way imaginable and not accept correction nor explanation.

I have. I can't share details, but the event forever damaged the whole group's trust in one another because one person decided to interpret something in the most offensive way possible, and lashed out viciously at anyone who disagreed, or even agreed but not as strongly as they wanted.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that this is a failure of philosophy in political leadership. Not that philosophy was ever paramount in politics, but it was at least expected in the highest classes. Everything devolves into tribalism without philosophy. It looks like people are discoursing, but they are really just signalling.

"Not that philosophy was ever paramount in politics, but it was at least expected in the highest classes." Well some of it has been influential, works by Aristotle and Plato for instance. In another post here I've mentioned Plato's Republic (now well over 200 years old). Its arguments about justice are still the cornerstone of our justice system these days—or at least they're supposed to be. "Everything devolves into…

"...(now well over 200 years old)"

Duh, how did miss that glaring typo? Of course that should read 2000 years. While I'm at it, the best figure we have for the Republic is ≈375 BC which makes it ≈2396 years old.

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