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Changes at Basecamp

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Re: Changes at Basecamp

#541

Post by jsiepkes »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #191

There's a great blog entry I just read about this, "On Politics At Work". I think the author effectively hits on a real problem with a lot of these discussions. https://json.blog/2021/04/26/on-politics-at.html To some folks, "politics at work" means "endless battle royale political debates among coworkers in a Slack all day long; why wouldn't you be against that? But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying…

I find the boundaries which the "On Politics At Work" blog sets to be very narrow and centered around what that the author thinks is the most pressing issue. The author names 4 points out of which 3 are about equality on the workfloor and one vague one about "what problems do we solve?".

I find it odd that no one even speaks about questions like: "Is this company a net-win for society? Are we perhaps making the world a worse place?". For example is it not important if you work at Uber to discuss how far "disrupting" is allowed to go? When does "disrupting" become eroding workclass rights? Shouldn't you discuss if it is ethical to get a large group of people to work below minimum wage? Or in case of Apple if it is acceptable that the supply chain becomes time and again "contaminated" with suppliers who use forced labour?

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#542

Post by madeofpalk »

rakoo wrote: post #527
ck425 wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a position of privilege. Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of indifference.

I legitimately believe that "not giving a fuck about differences" is the goal we should all aim for. Yes, I am lucky that I can afford this mindset, but if I want everyone to also benefit from this privilege (such that it isn't a privilege anymore, but the standard), how do I do ? I live in a country where the differences are handled almost the exact opposite to what is done in the US. Instead of spreading positive d…

"not giving a fuck about differences" is 100% the goal. But there are differences, so ignoring them is just sticking your head in the sand.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#543

Post by brown9-2 »

markmark wrote: post #423
brown9-2 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And god forbid you're NOT part of that channel, because then you're the "one person who doesn't care" or some such is this a serious thing actually happening to anyone?

Basecamp's post specifically called this out as a problem.

Then I think their problem is not “politics” but being unable to deal with individual employees who are being unreasonable and uncivil.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#544

Post by rexreed »

ativzzz wrote: post #265
rexreed wrote: post #198

How does the 10% profit share work? Do they take 10% of profits and divide them equally among all employees? Contractors? Full time? Part time? Interns? Does someone know how the profit share works?

Typically you can either give everyone the same percent or say you set aside 10% of your profit and divvy it up proportional to people's salaries

Yes but how is it being done in this case?

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#545

Post by koonsolo »

madeofpalk wrote: post #542
rakoo wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I legitimately believe that "not giving a fuck about differences" is the goal we should all aim for. Yes, I am lucky that I can afford this mindset, but if I want everyone to also benefit from this privilege (such that it isn't a privilege anymore, but the standard), how do I do ? I live in a country where the differences are handled almost the exact opposite to what is done in the US. Instead of spreading positive d…

"not giving a fuck about differences" is 100% the goal. But there are differences, so ignoring them is just sticking your head in the sand.

I agree that there are differences. I also agree that minorities deal with discrimination. But the solution is relentlessly not giving a fuck, and now comes the big part: also making sure everyone else doesn't give a fuck (about the differences).

This last part is crucial for not being indifferent or sticking your head in the sand. We ignore the differences, but we don't ignore the bastards that do take those differences into account.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#546

Post by koonsolo »

motoxpro wrote: post #531
koonsolo wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not indifferent towards people who discriminate, whether that is positive or negative discrimination. But thankfully those people are a minority.

I mean, I think this is like saying it's O.K. to not care about climate change because we have done enough and it's not a problem anymore. i.e. It's way better than it was and it doesn't effect me so I can live my life however I want, I am not worried about the future generations that may have that problem because of my actions. In this situation, you are saying it doesn't effect you so you have the privelege of not…

You don't seem to get my point: everyone should care about the environment, and nobody should care about the color of your skin.

Edit: let me be more specific. In a company, I don't want to hear "Are the women compensated the same as the men?", I want to hear "Is everyone fairly compensated?". There is a very big difference between the 2.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#547

Post by zimpenfish »

marbletiles wrote: post #532
thu2111 wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard not to escape the conclusion that the goal of Basecamp's new policy is to quietly suppress or ultimately evict people who think like you. There is no connection whatsoever between diversity and building product. Note: you haven't tried to explain your claim there is, just implied it's obvious, probably because you can't. I've seen people try to honestly intellectually defend a connection between employee di…

There is an absolute wealth of connection between more diversity and better products: it’s not that a monoculture can’t make products for everyone, it’s that it’s easier for a team that has wider representation to do so: it’s a competitive advantage for them. Want examples beyond hand driers? Apple missed menstrual cycle tracking in the Health app. NASA offered to send 1,000 tampons with the first woman in space - an…

Another (potentially fatal!) example: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200812161318.h...

> Women are more likely than men to suffer adverse side effects of medications because drug dosages have historically been based on clinical trials conducted on men, suggests new research from the University of California, Berkeley, and the University of Chicago.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#548

Post by jononomo »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #191

There's a great blog entry I just read about this, "On Politics At Work". I think the author effectively hits on a real problem with a lot of these discussions. https://json.blog/2021/04/26/on-politics-at.html To some folks, "politics at work" means "endless battle royale political debates among coworkers in a Slack all day long; why wouldn't you be against that? But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying…

Forget banning politics at work -- that's obviously such a good idea that it should be considered an assumption. This post from chipotle_coyote makes a good argument for banning Slack at work.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#549

Post by yosito »

kristofferR wrote: post #276
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #191

There's a great blog entry I just read about this, "On Politics At Work". I think the author effectively hits on a real problem with a lot of these discussions. https://json.blog/2021/04/26/on-politics-at.html To some folks, "politics at work" means "endless battle royale political debates among coworkers in a Slack all day long; why wouldn't you be against that? But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying…

Sounds just as dumb as when Hacker News banned "politics" for a period, and people were discouraged from posting EFF blog posts and the like, because "politics" is an impressively vague word. Politics is life, it doesn't have to be toxic.

Starting a comment with "sounds dumb" isn't a great way to make your case that "it doesn't have to be toxic".

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#550

Post by jononomo »

madeofpalk wrote: post #537
junon wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much does being a woman affect your ability to engineer? Should a woman only be hired because they're a woman, even if they're a poor engineer? That seems way more sexist than the alternative.

I would say reasonably. Products benefit from broad points of view. Companies should avoid making soap dispensers that don't work on black skin because they didn't hire black people. The cliche is that tech companies are aiming to change the world. Software has real impacts on humans. Maybe the group of people "changing the world" should be a bit more diverse than just Dudes.

"products benefit from a broad point of view" lol
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