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Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

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Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#541

Judging by the comments in this thread, it seems a lot of people are still unaware that: 1. Gain of function research primarily uses samples collected from nature, and seeks to stimulate their evolution in as natural a way as possible to learn how viruses evolve in nature. If such viruses were to escape the lab, they would appear "natural" 2. It's not xenophobic for people from the US to suggest the possibility of a…

I feel like people are doing a poor job distinguishing between "engineered" and "leaked." There is, from my understanding, reasonable evidence to conclude the virus was not engineered from the perspective of "we took genes from one virus and moved them to this virus," but there's no evidence disproving the idea that it was the result of gain of function research. My personal feeling is that these statements are true:…

For completeness sake, can we also say:

* There is no evidence that the virus originated with imported frozen seafood.

* There is no evidence that the virus originated with US Army personnel who were present for the Military World Games.

* There is no evidence for the "multiple origins theory" that the Chinese government is currently promoting.

The wet market origin theory would be more plausible to me if not for the fact that SARS-CoV-2 was found all over surfaces there but not in a single live or dead animal. That seems to indicate that it was merely the location of an early superspreader event and not the true origin.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal feelings are that all 3 are possible, but approximately 0.0001% of people will actually consider the likelihood of each one, but rather, most will choose whichever one is most convenient and comfortable to believe in. Of course as an Asian person, whatever people believe in will have a direct impact on me. I remember after 9/11, the amount of awful things that were said and done to the Sikh population in…

I assign non-negligible probability to each of them. I don't know. But I hate the stupid racism and hate around it. COVID-19 attacked every country. With the exception of, like, New Zealand (but it affected them as well... had to shut down their borders, etc). These viruses are a threat to all humanity. I just want us to fight them better and help everyone. I think it's super important that we both simultaneously hol…

> These viruses are a threat to all humanity. I just want us to fight them better and help everyone.

It would be more accurate to say: these viruses are a threat to the current socioeconomic and sociopolitical status quo.

Take air travel for instance. It was key to spreading this and other pandemic viruses. Yet no one is questioning air travel. Note: I'm not suggesting it should be shut down, only that the idea of international flights being normalized should be revisited.

Looking at Forbes latest list to the richest people in the world tells us 2020 was a great year for wealth redistribution (from the bottom to the top). It was a great year for the status quo, for the globalists. As for the rest of us? 2020 was not so good.

Ultimately, the virus is a symptom.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal feelings are that all 3 are possible, but approximately 0.0001% of people will actually consider the likelihood of each one, but rather, most will choose whichever one is most convenient and comfortable to believe in. Of course as an Asian person, whatever people believe in will have a direct impact on me. I remember after 9/11, the amount of awful things that were said and done to the Sikh population in…

I assign non-negligible probability to each of them. I don't know. But I hate the stupid racism and hate around it. COVID-19 attacked every country. With the exception of, like, New Zealand (but it affected them as well... had to shut down their borders, etc). These viruses are a threat to all humanity. I just want us to fight them better and help everyone. I think it's super important that we both simultaneously hol…

Despite what a lot of people think we had covid here in NZ too, people died - but like China we did a nationwide lockdown and people actually took it seriously, people only went out to buy food for 6 weeks. The government opened its pockets and made sure people, could live and still had jobs when it was over, and the economy was ready to be restarted.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would add to it, because it would significantly increase the number of lies they told the rest of the world, given that they've been maintaining that it isn't a lab leak.

The thing with covid was it caught everyone by surprise. It’s not like the US even caught on first. It devastated Italy before we even flinched, so that alone is evidence that, at least for the US response, we would have gone to shit no matter who warned us.

The counterfactual is hard to reason about. SARS-1 was contained because international travel was restricted immediately after the first few cases. Once you seed multiple countries with it, competence matters for little.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi I actually discussed the GOF several times in my post and subsequent comments. You can find them here: - http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid-19_did... - http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid-19_did... I also address the statistical models you describe, here: - https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did... I go into detail about petri dish vs lab animals vs accele…

Everyone knows that mutations that increase transmissability generally hurt morbidity. Is there some reason you think this supports zoonotic hypothesis? It is public knowledge RaTG13 was collected from a mine shaft where a similar virus killed 50% of infected workers and where WIV was doing significant sampling work. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2020.5815... Your comments on mutation rates confi…

>Your comments on mutation rates confirm that RaTG13 is not closely related to COV (we knew that) and imply we should expect to find a closer relative. Yet we haven't. And the paper you share argues (again) against your conclusions by pointing out that neither Yunnan nor Wuhan are expected hotspots for missing zoonoses to emerge

It's really funny you mention that because when I presented this paper in my departmental journal club, that was the #1 criticism levied. This model over-enriches for South America and under-enriches for East Asia.

Mostly it has to do with (in my opinion) their under-reliance on host-specificity and over-reliance on overall biological diversity. The Pacific Northwest is a hotbed of ecological and biological diversity in rodents among other things, but we haven't had any major outbreaks out of that area yet (knock on wood).

Papers can be wrong or whatever. Or underappreciate things. Lots of other scientists think there's a massive underappreciated reservoir of bat-related viruses in Asia. Peter Daszak is the obvious one, but also Heinz Feldmann, Christian Drosten, Peter Daniels, basically anyone who has ever studied bat viruses or influenza viruses believes there's a lot left undiscovered in Asia. That's also why several of the most recent hemorrhagic fever virus meetings from Keystone was in Hong Kong. SARS-1 is a big memory there, and not a very long ago one.

>SOMEONE in your group of international scientists should be able to confirm or deny allegations the WIV was in fact shutdown for a week in September. If no-one cannot confirm or deny this direct and very specific allegation how can anyone take seriously your claim that international civilian researchers would have any clue who was doing what kind of research in the facility or with its materials elsewhere?

My BSL3/4 was shut down all the time. For maintenance or whatever. They're facilities that go down for maintenance often because of how important it is to make them safe. Anytime an autoclave broke, or a fan broke, you had to take it down because it no longer met the biosafety standards set forth in the protocols.

I personally have no idea if it was shut down for a week in September, that's a very specific thing. Do you know exactly when a company in your line of work started doing work from home? Or when it was shut down for an internet outage? etc. etc. That's a very specific thing.

Sure I could ask around and probably figure that out. But I also don't want to, because I'm not interested in fueling your conspiracy theory when I have no idea what relevance that would have to the likelihood of a lab leak. Given how often these facilities shut down. They do it yearly as a rule, and often 4-5 times per year due to other maintenance reasons. And yes that includes brand new facilities. I cannot tell you how many times people at the BSL4 in Montana here in the US told me about facility shutdowns as reasons they couldn't conduct my experiments! It delayed my PhD a bit!

IVF is actually ALMOST the start of the process since we already had the ACE2 gene sequence. I suppose you would have to clone it and that might take a month. So altogether probably 3-4 months. Especially since it was TOP priority, like drop everything else and do this.

I'll give you an example. In my work, we had to clone Stat1 and Stat2 knockout mice, these are a model for Zika and for testing ebola vaccines and creating anti-Ebola antibodies, I published a paper all about it you can look it up in my gscholar linked elsewhere here.

Anyway, to go from idea to first generation of mouse (I didn't actually do the work, just watched someone else do it this was really early in my PhD)... it took about 6 months. And that's with a zillion other things on our plates. If it was the ONLY thing we were doing? Yeah it probably could have been done in 4 months. Probably 3 if you gave us unlimited funding and perfect facilities.

Science doesn't work the way you want it to work either, btw. It's not about wild hypotheses and conspiracies about people hiding stuff from the public. It's not about supposition and theoretical thought experiments. We rely on concrete data to make very small conclusions based on probability, and then test them.

Unfortunately, this really isn't a testable hypothesis either way. That's why the occam's razor factor matters so much here. It really is a probabilistic argument.

I never said it was impossible that this was a lab leak, only really unlikely.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi I actually discussed the GOF several times in my post and subsequent comments. You can find them here: - http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid-19_did... - http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid-19_did... I also address the statistical models you describe, here: - https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did... I go into detail about petri dish vs lab animals vs accele…

Everyone knows that mutations that increase transmissability generally hurt morbidity. Is there some reason you think this supports zoonotic hypothesis? It is public knowledge RaTG13 was collected from a mine shaft where a similar virus killed 50% of infected workers and where WIV was doing significant sampling work. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2020.5815... Your comments on mutation rates confi…

Also, btw, month at the LONGEST for that ACE2 cloning. An experienced cloner using In-Fusion could probably do it in like a week. Or two weeks.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people are doing a poor job distinguishing between "engineered" and "leaked." There is, from my understanding, reasonable evidence to conclude the virus was not engineered from the perspective of "we took genes from one virus and moved them to this virus," but there's no evidence disproving the idea that it was the result of gain of function research. My personal feeling is that these statements are true:…

For completeness sake, can we also say: * There is no evidence that the virus originated with imported frozen seafood. * There is no evidence that the virus originated with US Army personnel who were present for the Military World Games. * There is no evidence for the "multiple origins theory" that the Chinese government is currently promoting. The wet market origin theory would be more plausible to me if not for the…

Yep, agreed on all 3 counts.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people are doing a poor job distinguishing between "engineered" and "leaked." There is, from my understanding, reasonable evidence to conclude the virus was not engineered from the perspective of "we took genes from one virus and moved them to this virus," but there's no evidence disproving the idea that it was the result of gain of function research. My personal feeling is that these statements are true:…

For completeness sake, can we also say: * There is no evidence that the virus originated with imported frozen seafood. * There is no evidence that the virus originated with US Army personnel who were present for the Military World Games. * There is no evidence for the "multiple origins theory" that the Chinese government is currently promoting. The wet market origin theory would be more plausible to me if not for the…

Best epidemiological and genetic evidence suggests it originated somewhere outside Wuhan and then became a serious outbreak there as it's a major population center.

https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did...

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably the biggest database of bat-origin coronaviruses in the world, and we're in the middle of a bat-origin coronavirus pandemic. Even ignoring the question of SARS-CoV-2's origins, shouldn't this be of great scientific interest? (If it isn't, then what was the point of the research in the first place?) Perhaps I could believe that a small group of virologists would have trouble keeping a website running,…

>With respect, I'd suggest that your attitude seems typical of the profession, and that that's exactly when the worst accidents happen. An RBMK reactor cannot explode.

Hi, difference is I actually admit these things are possible and have happened before.

But this event doesn't look anything like those other lab release events.

See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did...

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people are doing a poor job distinguishing between "engineered" and "leaked." There is, from my understanding, reasonable evidence to conclude the virus was not engineered from the perspective of "we took genes from one virus and moved them to this virus," but there's no evidence disproving the idea that it was the result of gain of function research. My personal feeling is that these statements are true:…

Yea, I'm not sure how some people can vehemently say any of the most plausible explanations are absolutely wrong or right. It seems like it's just not possible for anyone outside of a very small group in China to know the truth and also seems possible that no one at all knows exactly what happened. Without any smoking gun evidence, it seems like everything else is just guess work with some guesses a lot more educated…

Hi, you're probably right it isn't possible to know 100% the origin at this point.

All we can do is make probabilistic arguments. Inferences. Inductive reasoning.

And that sort of analysis, occam's razor based on the least new assumptions necessary to conclude the mechanism, I think the zoonotic theory is more likely.

The lab theory isn't impossible, it just requires a lot more untested and unknown assumptions.

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