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Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

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Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way. Nadella’s turn around is almost miraculous and is itself probably an interesting story. I wouldn’t bet on that as the norm. I’d expect the norm to be more like IBM, RIM, or Nokia. I agree with most of the article, but one line stuck out to me as particularly wrong: >”After the acquisition, we have an extremely long project that consum…

> Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way I'm not Ballmer's biggest fan, but I think he's often sold short (to Nadella's benefit), you'd almost believe Microsoft was tanking, but it grew a lot under Ballmer (mobile failures notwithstanding). As far as I can tell, Nadella just reprioritized projects that Ballmer launched or shepherded in his boring-but-efficient way: what new…

From my point of view, the things I've most "noticed" coming from MS that are great seem to all have been launched/started during Ballmer's days (2000-2014). For me those are:

Office/Word Online (2010)

Azure (2008/2010)

WSL (Can't find info. Looks like it started before 2014 under Project Astoria)

.Net Core (Happened in 2014 - not sure who "started it")

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#542
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming the rest of the world is different but it isn't. There's a massive amount of companies where working pace is very slow. A large percentage of employees do barely anything and these companies exist forever.

in my personnal experience, the only kind of companies that are really comfortable to employees (in terms of perks) and adopt a slow rythm, are benefiting from some kind of monopolistic, regulatory situation. Either public sector companies, or banks & insurance whose business model can't be disrupted that easily because of regulatory pressures. Giant IT companies from the valley that successfully built a way to lock…

could also be a niche market product created a decade ago that some other large company depends on. money keeps rolling in with little effort. source: personal experience. the company is no longer in operation but it lasted for a god 30 years.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way I'm not Ballmer's biggest fan, but I think he's often sold short (to Nadella's benefit), you'd almost believe Microsoft was tanking, but it grew a lot under Ballmer (mobile failures notwithstanding). As far as I can tell, Nadella just reprioritized projects that Ballmer launched or shepherded in his boring-but-efficient way: what new…

In a company the size of Microsoft, reprioritizing projects correctly is how you create a turnaround. He made Azure and Office 365 the central focus of the company just as software revenue growth was shifting to cloud hosting and SaaS, he stopped lighting money on fire trying to resurrect Windows Phone, he pushed Linux and OSS compatibility/development, and he put Phil Spencer in charge of Xbox which has saved the ga…

Yep. You looked at the revenues and it was Windows and Office which were clearly not continuing growth areas. Azure was floundering and only targeting .Net. Xbox wasn't doing great. They were flaming out on mobile. They had most of the pieces. They just weren't arranged and prioritized properly.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, the "offensive things" in his talks were only offensive to a small vocal minority by his own account. Is that really something we should take at face value? There are plenty of instances of people getting unreasonably offended but it's also extremely common for people to be shitty to their colleagues and use this as an excuse. He provides no actual examples.

Well, there is a little context provided by the post itself. While a lot of people seem to be calling him toxic, he comes off as quite genuine to me.

People can be genuinely toxic though.

Personally I've met and worked with lots of people that were in many ways friendly and genuine but had some weakness or quirk that induced them to mistreat their coworkers.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, political correctness creates a stranglehold on ideas, the very last thing those in SV need when they are regulating their own monopolies of ideas online.

Excessive political correctness does that. A good amount of political correctness means that you never have to work for a manager who openly respects you less because of your race or gender.

Worth noting that "political correctness" is a phrase created to lampoon/insult the irrational political groupthink of Communism, and was later converted into an indictment of progressive liberal values.

Saying "some political correctness okay" is equivalent to saying either "some irrational groupthink is okay", or "some cultural marxism is okay". What's worse than this general confusion, is then implying that it's the same thing as caring about human rights or the right not to be discriminated against. Thus it makes caring about human rights something to be ridiculed. But only when you defend the use of the term.

The term "political correctness" is only an insult. Defending it at all is like defending some insult you're given on a playground.

  "You're a poop head!"
  "Yeah, well... I *want* to be a poop head!"
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/historical-origin-p...

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way I'm not Ballmer's biggest fan, but I think he's often sold short (to Nadella's benefit), you'd almost believe Microsoft was tanking, but it grew a lot under Ballmer (mobile failures notwithstanding). As far as I can tell, Nadella just reprioritized projects that Ballmer launched or shepherded in his boring-but-efficient way: what new…

See: https://stratechery.com/2018/the-end-of-windows/ I think that article gets most of it. There's some MSFT narrative that comes up here a lot where people say Ballmer was doing great and Nadella just continued his plans, I don't buy it. MSFT had a lot of strategic failures as well as product failures under Ballmer. Nadella shifted strategy and made them a serious competitor again.

> There's some MSFT narrative that comes up here a lot where people say Ballmer was doing great and Nadella just continued his plans, I don't buy it.

Then it should be easy to say which green-field projects Nadella launched then. I can't think of any, but I'm open to learning.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#547

9 years @ Google, and I too came from a company acquired by Google. (In my case, Google did not keep our product or tech stack around, so.) And yes, I can say many Googlers are entitled. It's a fair descriptor. And the pace of work is slower than a startup. In general. And I too have many criticisms of Google. But. Google has entirely different revenue constraints. It can afford an entirely different way of working.…

The problem is that it can hurt your career, especially if you've never worked anywhere else. (random guess: somewhere between 15% and 30% of the workforce falls in that category)

You can learn the wrong lessons: you learn how to go up for promotion rather than build things that work for users.

In the last 10 years it's become extremely common at Google do work that is simply thrown away (because of issues above your pay grade). You could work at Google for 5 years and nothing you worked on ever sees the light of day. That is a problem.

You don't learn what works when your work gets thrown away. You can still get promoted anyway. So why do the work? Just pretend you did it. (It's usually not as black-and-white as that; employees are usually well intentioned but then are surprised when the work that was hyped up by management gets suddenly thrown away.)

I'd say that if you want to have a good career as an engineer, you should focus exclusively on building things from 22 to 26 (or whatever your first 4 years are). If you miss a year or 2 of that because of corporate politics, then you missed a lot of learning, and you may be unqualified for future jobs.

There is legitimately a lot to learn about writing software on the job -- IMO it's more than the equivalent of another 4 year CS degree.

----

This is probably the best description of it that I've read (after working there myself for over a decade and seeing the change in values):

https://mtlynch.io/why-i-quit-google/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16483241

I heard someone describe grad school as "17th grade" for some people with the wrong attitude. Google might be "21st grade" for others. That is, you're following metrics set up by an organization -- getting "graded" -- rather than building things for "the world".

The way some Google employees speak about "the world" highlights that disconnect. (e.g. the wearables thing on the front page yesterday was mocked)

To be fair, this is how things work at most jobs. If you work at a big bank or insurance company, you don't really care about "customers" either -- they are too far away from you. You care about what your boss thinks and his or her boss. This is sort of the "default" configuration of society.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#548
post #226
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all of that except the swearing part. Is swearing in work a big deal in US? I'm Scottish (even worse Glaswegian) so perhaps have a skewed view.

No idea about US (I'd guess - yeah), but it's certainly a big deal here in continental Europe. I've also not seen anyone casually swear in London either. It's considered quite unprofessional and aggressive.

Really? I've went to London office a couple of times and have had many colleagues there and they didn't seem notable different to Scots in terms of swearing.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#549

He sounds kind of toxic and out of touch, and didn't really mention why he stayed so long despite that being the title of the article. You know someone is Up To Something when they rant about HR restricting their speech. It's weird to me that he's now a free agent, rants about how people complained that "I used a four letter word, my analogy was not PC, my language was not PG", and yet doesn't indulge in his blog pos…

At the risk of being not politically correct myself, I think there are significant cultural gaps between the west coast American standard and people from Israel (Bardin is Isralei). With the caveat that this is my experience only, Israelis are more blunt, direct and often openly critical vs Americans, especially Californians. They're often right and all the ones I've worked with have been very smart, but the way a me…

Israeli here.

cultural gaps are very much alive and kicking

During my career I've worked with people around the world, all in the Tech industry.

Israeli-Californian cultural gap is huge.

It is made worse by the fact that Israelis usually have a good English level, some even have an okay accent - which makes their US counterpart expect them to use the same communication etiquette they are used to.

Californians will go out of their way to avoid any overt conflict.

Israelis see conflict as a valid form of day to day communications.

An Israeli can go out of a meeting thinking he was just being told "yes", while he was given a glaring "no" delivered in the All-American-speak.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#550
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall watching a news report as a teen about how things used to be pretty chill at Microsoft at its heyday. These days it doesn't seem to have a monopoly on much of anything, but it can still crank out interesting projects. It doesn't have to be a black-and-white do-or-die.

Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way. Nadella’s turn around is almost miraculous and is itself probably an interesting story. I wouldn’t bet on that as the norm. I’d expect the norm to be more like IBM, RIM, or Nokia. I agree with most of the article, but one line stuck out to me as particularly wrong: >”After the acquisition, we have an extremely long project that consum…

"Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way. Nadella’s turn around is almost miraculous "

This is definitely not true.

Ballmer increased revenues massively, and launched a slew of new products (XBox, MS Live, cloud etc.) and realigned the company. Have a look [1]

Nadella has done nothing approaching that level of importance yet, so far, he is riding the wave that was handed to him.

Now the stock price - this is a different thing. It sagged under Ballmer even as MSFT was massively growing revenues, around Naella's time investors realized that MS 'was not fading' and all that extra EPS was like a share price slingshot.

Ballmer was as transformative and important as Gates.

Nadella's early transformations were around culture, but that's just PR.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/267805/microsofts-global...

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