Why can't I write code inside my browser? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#541

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

lionkor wrote: post #304

user-the-name wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many to list. Currently working as a senior programmer for the user-facing client for a company worth hundreds of millions, with an app store rating of 4.9. Previously, I've developed open source software that got 5000-10000 downloads a day, and a few private commercial projects that pulled in a few thousand dollars a month. A recent open source project on github has 8k stars. Is that enough credentials to listen…

It's enough credentials to make your criticisms worth thinking about. It's fascinating how, in a few years, I got so familiar with the commandline and never felt like it was too complicated (although I do almost everything through it), both at work and privately. Maybe, with a skillset like that, you could just make the things better that you dont like, instead of what looks like "just complaining".

[deleted]

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#542

Post by kellyjprice » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #386

kichimi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which one? Please explain how it's pointless. What is esoteric about typing which program you want to run?

I love the command line and use it all the time. But let's be honest, the design is pretty esoteric. You want to find a file containing a particular string? For some reason the tool is called 'grep'. The name is followed by '-r' then the search term, then the directory to start the search in. And it won't be long before you start encountering tools with such intuitive names as 'sed' and 'awk' and 'crontab' The tool f…

Oh oh. I read the HN article about why it's called `grep`.

g - global re - regex p - print

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grep#:~:text=Its%20name%20come....

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#543

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #322

user-the-name wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used and programmed computers for over three decades.

This will sound accusatory, but there is an allegory: "There are people with 30 years experience, and there are people with 1 year of experience repeated 30 times."

[deleted]

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#544

Post by moistbar » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

100% agree. I immediately stopped reading as soon as he said "wtf is a user/local/bin in path?" Someone that ignorant of the absolute basics of how a computer works has no business complaining about the user-friendliness of programming.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#545

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

kaoD wrote: post #535

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They gave counter examples, specifically "we didn't need this in the past, therefore it is not actually necessary". Which is entirely correct. We do things the way we do things largely for historical reasons and beginner users are right to point that out.

I was there in the past and the tools are really not comparable. I just inserted a floppy disk and did A: then TP.EXE (which was just as arcane as knowing $PATH) but do I really want to work on Turbo Pascal in MS-DOS? Of course complexity skyrocketed! That's not a counterexample because beginners have contemporary expectations. There are simpler alternatives that just work. Why do beginners want to use Node.js locall…

> I was there in the past and the tools are really not comparable. I just inserted a floppy disk and did D: then TP.EXE but do I really want to work on Turbo Pascal in MS-DOS? Of course complexity skyrocketed!

Did it do so for reasons that are still relevant today, is the question.

> That's not a counterexample because beginners have contemporary expectations.

Alright I'll present a counterexample: Lazarus. You download it and install it [0], then you run it and make programs. It has a WYSIWYG GUI builder and produces stand-alone executables for multiple operating systems. There is no complicated build environment to set up.

> If you're not using $PATH you'd be using an analogue system to solve the same problem, and you'd lose portability with current OSes.

I contend that the problem $PATH solves has nothing to do with programming. $PATH is a solution for finding programs when you type their name on the commandline, nothing more. Windows and Mac programs don't really use or need it for the vast majority of tasks. Programming does not fundamentally require $PATH.

> Sounds like NIH to me.

And arguments that understanding $PATH is somehow a necessary pre-requisite to get into programming sound like needless complexity fetishism to me.

[0] I would argue that the installation step here is also unnecessary as there is no reason Lazarus cannot operate as a stand-alone self-contained portable folder other than the developers insistence on hardcoded paths.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#546

Post by selfhoster11 » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

chme wrote: post #409

selfhoster11 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed these points in one of my comments a while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25305575 I admit that I'm kind of conflating the concept of a terminal emulator, a shell and a shell language, but the shell model has plenty to improve upon.

This smells a bit like PowerShell. PowerShell streams Objects instead of characters/bytes. But that is more compatible with cmd than sh. Many other points are more about the terminal emulator. terminiology has some of those features AFAIK.

PowerShell is very close to what I think we need, but even PS is not quite cutting deeply enough. We need to rethink the command line rather than apply band-aids to an idiosyncratic model. Terminology is great, but it cannot solve the fundamental problems at the layers below that.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#547

Post by moistbar » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

user-the-name wrote: post #106

malux85 wrote: post #88

If the author has “been playing with the web and code for years” and is still “wtf” on /usr/local/bin in $PATH it shows a lack of discipline and structure in their learning. I see this in many in many of my apprentices - the desire for instant gratification and the lack of experience means they refuse to do anything that doesn’t immediately proceed them closer to their goal. Here’s the thing with programming - you ca…

/usr/local/bin has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge. It is only required because, as the author correctly points out, the tools we use are BAD. They are absolutely fucking AWFUL. /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. It's still here because we refuse to fix these ridiculous things. Nobody sho…

>/usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades.

/usr/local/bin is where most Linux distros put binaries that were built locally, as opposed to those that came from the package manager...

Not to mention, if you don't understand how and where your binary is supposed to run, what on earth are you doing making it in the first place?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#548

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #526

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm saying the tools are not weird if you understand them No, they are still weird. They are only not weird if you've become accustomed to the weirdness. I primarily develop on Windows, and when I come to Linux to work on things I am astonished to find that Linux developers think nothing of using upwards of half a dozen different languages to build one thing. CMake, autoconf, shell, and python all being used to bui…

I think a lot of this thread is people’s biases from what they are used to. I’m one of those guys who started on the command line and lived on the command line most of his life. I couldn’t imagine a more productive environment! I consider a bunch of xterms running vi to be the pinnacle of IDEs. But I did two brief stints at Windows shops and just couldn’t get really productive. The guy next to me who was scared of th…

I think it is perfectly reasonable to question whether all of that is necessary just to program stuff for the web.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#549

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

You can’t write code inside your browser because there are better environments for writing code for most people who want to write code, and enabling in-browser coding without it being a giant and regularly exploited security hole through which non-technical users would be exploited is nontrivial.

Yes, it would be very convenient for beginner programmers, but beginner programmers are a very small subset of browser users. (And a robust and even less-secure-against-”paste this command into your browser programming environment” attacks version would be good for more advanced programmers, but even worse for everyone else.) And having specific browsers targeting each of those environments would be possible, but negate (especially for beginner programmers) a significant part of the advantage of having the programming environment integrated in the browser in the first place.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#550

Post by moistbar » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

user-the-name wrote: post #269

malux85 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I was just saying that in my vast experience the two things that you described as: "absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge" Were indeed critical components to all of these systems, and organisations, and that it's not a big ask to require a programmer to know them. Also, on what authority do you decide what is programming and what isn't?

The whole point is, there is no reason to require a programmer to know them. That is an arbitrary choice we have made. We could make a different choice, and not require a programmer to know these things. They could do everything just as well without knowing this, if we let them.

> The whole point is, there is no reason to require a programmer to know them.

There's no point to making sure a programmer knows how his environment is set up? Are you being serious right now?