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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#541

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

brightball wrote: post #479
coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

The biggest thing that I’ve seen in the news haven’t come from lies but from removal of context. Anything can be made more inflammatory if you remove key details while still remaining factually correct. - Tim punched Bob - Bob punched Tim - Bob and Tim shake hands Reported as... - Bob punched Tim Factually correct but lacking context. Unless the reader knows the entire story be putting it together from multiple repor…

CNN: And here are the results of the golf tournament between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Biden took the second place. Trump was just one row above the looser.

Reflecting the same joke for Fox News is left as an exercise to the reader.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#542

Post by Ar-Curunir »

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

lmao it really takes a good amount of brainwashing to think that a fascist militia invading your government's headquarters is because of political correctness.

Like, step outside your own little head bubble and take a fucking look around your country. Your police were entirely happy to shoot and injure black protestors in the summer; the same protestors you are maligning as "hurting free speech". There's a reason why the police aren't doing the same to this white militia, and it's not because they suddenly decided to stop being violent

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#543

Post by majormajor »

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

Speech aside, what about looking through a lens of personal responsibility?

Some people don't take responsibility for offending others, they'd rather place the blame on the person who heard them. You think that's rather a minor problem, ok. Let's skip past the question of offensive speech for now...

Let's talk about preserving a democracy. What happens when people no longer feel any responsibility for citizens having trust in that democracy? They use their speech to weaken it (this is a much broader group than just Trump) and now, with Trump, even to incite violence if they think it will benefit themselves. Fault and responsibility seems to clearly lie with them and their choices, they shouldn't be able to dodge that responsibility by redirecting to abstract discussion of the pros and cons of restrictions on speech.

You are dodging the direct "how did we get here?" answer of "people are making blatant shortsighted power plays" by talking about people's "iddly-widdly-fweelings." That's ridiculous.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#544

Post by RealityVoid »

CivBase wrote: post #166
6a74 wrote: post #2

What do these protestors hope to accomplish?

According to some of the more conspiratorial comments in this thread, a coup. The actual answer is probably that they do not believe the claims of election fraud have been sufficiently investigated. I'm sure they want a more thorough investigation to be held before the election results are officially recognized by congress. That and they're just angry people who have resorted to rioting - like how a toddler resorts t…

Let's be honest, no amount of proof would convince them. They would move the goalpost as far as necessary for them to get what they want. They just KNOW they WON the election and I fail to see what would budge their belief.

I think it's a mistake to think that these people argue in good faith. I tried listening to what they have to say and they're not consistent, they're not coherent, they're not honest and they want the truth only if it confirms their beliefs.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#545

Post by elliekelly »

ako wrote: post #400
_qulr wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people do it to themselves. They believe what they want to believe, hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see. This is still largely a free country where there are multiple independent sources of "news", and individuals voluntarily expose themselves or not to whatever they choose. As far as I know, nobody is tied down in a chair and forced to watch certain TV shows or listen to certain radio shows fo…

Agree that this is nothing new. Manipulation of people through misinformation has been the rule for a long time. What do you think religion is? Manipulation of people through misinformation to coerce people into behavior which benefits society.

Facebook and twitter allow the manipulation and coercion to happen faster and more efficiently. We weren’t ready for that massive shift in media.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#546

Post by triceratops »

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

> Although restricting offensive speech has the upfront benefit of not hurting our iddly-widdly-fweelings, this is the price we pay for abandoning free speech.

Given that lies about the election, protected by free speech, have stoked these riots maybe you should consider whether it's really a problem of not enough free speech.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#547

Post by nostromo »

moosey wrote: post #329
dhruvkar wrote: post #47

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

A person can believe anything they want. If there were evidence of a stolen election, then Trump would have won a number of court cases from one of the MANY judges, mostly ... well, conservative, to use a label ... that he placed his cases in front of. Anyone can look at these cases and have an understanding of the actual evidence presented, and see, objectively, that there was not significant election or voter tampe…

I don't believe the election was stolen.

But I will say: it's almost impossible to prove an election has been stolen after the fact with mail-in ballots. Once the outer envelope is removed and destroyed, the ballot is irreversibly anonymous. It's impossible to tell if an anonymous ballot is fraudulent or not -- there's no ability to audit it by contacting the voter.

Mail-in ballots are particularly vulnerable to fraud, something the New York Times correctly worried about back before Trump.[1]. And we just had more mail-in ballots than ever before thanks to Covid.

HN has long been suspicious of voting systems; we all know how often systems are hacked by bad actors. I don't think it's a stretch to think that election tampering is possible, particularly in close elections.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/us/politics/as-more-vote-...

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#549

Post by OCASM »

shadowfacts wrote: post #40

It is despicable how tepid the police response to armed rioters storming the Capitol has been compared to the response to BLM protests over the summer.

Were they destroying property and throwing molotov cocktails at them like Antifa/BLM did over the summer?

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#550

Post by bentcorner »

slumdev wrote: post #468
dhruvkar wrote: post #47

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

Fraud occurred. That much is tautological. A single instance of a dead person voting proves the statement true. To say, "fraud didn't occur," is an outright lie. The debate is over (1) how much fraud occurred and (2) whether it affected the results. Someone else posted the "Here is the Evidence" link. Too many videos of (R) election judges being denied access to counts done in secret, organizers paying for votes, pos…

Personally I'm of the opinion that there are likely voting inaccuracies just due to scale, and anything that is turned up is only found because we looked.

If you looked anywhere else I'm positive you'll find similar problems but they don't matter as much because the buffer for correctness is so large.

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