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Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

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Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#541

Post by xg15 »

xg15 wrote: post #412
philwelch wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decentralized authoritarianism is an inherently weird concept. Sounds more like a vicious type of mob rule to me.

I meant physically decentralized - as in, no grand palaces or other government buildings that can be stormed, because the whole administration is working from home. Imagine a 100% remote company, except, it's not a company. The power structures are of course not decentralized at all.

... that being said, an authoritarian state with decentralized power structure is also an interesting concept. The episodes about social scoring from Black Mirror [1] and The Orville [2] might go into that direction.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

[2] https://orville.fandom.com/wiki/Majority_Rule

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#542

Post by austincheney »

CydeWeys wrote: post #537
austincheney wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people. That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head. That is not correct. If you are blocking a freeway causing hours of traffic delays then I am not making assump…

The protests are working. It doesn't matter if you hypothetically would be pissed off about being stuck in traffic because of one, they are demonstrably working . So they absolutely continue despite your objections. See: https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-l... https://news.gallup.com/poll/317321/believe-protest-actions-... I think you should take a step back and really consider why you're argu…

Neither of your links mention anything related to blocking freeways. Your second link mentions that violent protests are viewed extremely negatively. Where I live blocking a freeway would be viewed similarly. As negative as the numbers in your source suggest doing that a few times would tank support for any protest movement.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#543

Post by LoSboccacc »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #527
cyberdrunk wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not a problem of houses built that way since the were built pre-car times to allow max light into apartments Not the case in most of Europe IMO. The apartment buildings were built along very narrow streets to either fit inside perimeter of city walls or (later) because real estate was expensive. Due to narrowness of roads, these apartments are not very well lit and are depressing (you can't see the sky thro…

> what you mean by "social aspects" of streets? well the '70s blocks in Poland do have quite some shared greenery, at least the southern part were I've been extensively, but I saw them also up north, even in the outskirts of 'special case' cities that have had their historical centers preserved or restored like Gdansk [1] or Torun [2] - that's what planner can do to encourages a local and social aspect to the local n…

lol somehow someone with an axe to grind has been following me and downvoting all the posts I make as if that proves anything.

interestingly even factual, sourced post like this were victims to trolling; I though there were protections to anti social behaviour in place, but alas, here we are.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#544

Post by RangerScience »

ashtonkem wrote: post #473
RangerScience wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO this is part of why why protests started marching down freeways. In LA, if you protest by marching down basically any freeway, you snarl up that freeway (and likely more) for tens of miles, at least (AFAIK). (the 101 between hollywood and DTLA is essentially a single thing, the 10 between DTLA and West Side, the 405 from culver city up to over the pass in sherman oaks...) AKA, the "center" isn't geographic, but..…

The transit system in Los Angeles is always so close to the edge, it doesn’t take a huge push for rush hour to turn into total gridlock. Assuming that’s their goal, which seems probable, it’s not clear if that strategy would be reproducible in say, Ohio.

AFAIK, the goal is "now things are different", and the tactic at play is "be unignorable".

The impression I've always gotten is that what you're permitted to do when you're doing a legal protest is to minimize the disruption it has, which is (IMO) within epsilon of "make it as ignorable as possible".

Ohio might have a more centralized city center, where LA doesn't, or have other forms of "center" the way the transit system in LA is "central" to the metropolis.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#545

Post by sudosysgen »

jariel wrote: post #526
sudosysgen wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting the political engagement of your citizens to only voting in a two party system is madness. When people stop being engaged, and stop voting, and your country turns to shit, I can say that I warned you. No, seriously, this is insane. You want to, functionally, ban protests. There is absolutely no way you can have a functional country if you can't even have peaceful demonstrations.

"You want to, functionally, ban protests." You have a misunderstanding of what is legal, what is not, and what a peaceful protest is. Blocking traffic is already banned . That's 100% illegal in all cases. 'Protests' which infringe on the rights of others are just another form of fascism. 'My Fascism is Worthwhile' is not a civic or moral argument. You can protest peacefully, vote, engage in other forms of civic obedi…

Walking in the street is not fascism. This is seriously ridiculous. Are you going to claim that the Hong Kong protests, or the Climate Protests are fascists because people were walking in the streets?

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#546

Post by jlawson »

sudosysgen wrote: post #520
jlawson wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a vote. Use it. You also have a voice. Use it. You have no right to undemocratically wield power over others by physical force. You have no right to force others to suffer to compel them to your will which they did not choose.

Limiting the political engagement of your citizens to only voting in a two party system is madness. When people stop being engaged, and stop voting, and your country turns to shit, I can say that I warned you. No, seriously, this is insane. You want to, functionally, ban protests. There is absolutely no way you can have a functional country if you can't even have peaceful demonstrations.

Funny, I never said "only voting". I also said you have a voice, use it. You seem to have completely ignored that paragraph.

Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at actually responding to what I wrote.

It is absolutely possible to protest without hurting innocent bystanders.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#547

Post by jariel »

ashtonkem wrote: post #531
jariel wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you set the bar at "your point has to be true before you can protest", then goodbye free speech." This is not true at all. These arguments are purposefully conflating 'speech and protest' with the right to block traffic and infringe on other people's rights. You can 100% stand in front of city hall to tell us about 'Alien Invasions' if you want. You can 100% not block traffic to do it. You have more opportunities…

That is literally a different argument though. Now you're arguing about the difference between civil disobedience (which necessarily involves breaking norms or laws) and simple protest. This is a fair distinction, but genuinely a tedious one. Yes, standing around in the street is illegal, that's the point. We're not going to work out anything new here that hasn't been discussed over the past century. What I'm reactin…

???

So you fully support anti-abortion protestors blocking the entrance to abortion clinics?

That's 'civil disobedience' and 'breaking the law' for the 'content of speech' (in their view) of 'saving lives'?

Seems pretty legit? Saving lives?

What about White Supremacists burning down 'desegregated schools' in protest of 'desegregation'?

Or some 'burning crosses' on the streets in front of the NAACP? I mean, hey, it's their right to 'protest'?

How about 'Anti-Vaxxer' protesters surrounding evil big corporate pharma research centres and not allowing anyone in or out (civil disobedience) because 'big pharma' is giving everyone autism?

Or a much more mild case: two days ago in Montreal a small group of protestors brought down a national monument, as police watched and refused to intervene.

So how many protestors do I need exactly to tear down monuments? What's the 'headcount' threshold for the Washington monument coming down? I mean, he did own slaves ...

It's not tedious to distinguish between what is illegal and what is not, it's literally at the heart of civilization.

And no - we generally don't care what your 'cause' is - if someone really wants to 'protests' for 'segregation' - that's totally fine, they can make nice placards and sit in the park.

It's incredibly naive to ignore the damage and harm caused to a lot of people in the wake of a lot of unfortunate protests which have turned violent, let alone the problems caused but otherwise more basic civil acts.

There are 1000 ways to protest, if you want to sit on the sidewalk and get dragged away, that's fine, just don't get in other people's way.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#548

Post by sudosysgen »

jlawson wrote: post #546
sudosysgen wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting the political engagement of your citizens to only voting in a two party system is madness. When people stop being engaged, and stop voting, and your country turns to shit, I can say that I warned you. No, seriously, this is insane. You want to, functionally, ban protests. There is absolutely no way you can have a functional country if you can't even have peaceful demonstrations.

Funny, I never said "only voting". I also said you have a voice, use it. You seem to have completely ignored that paragraph. Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at actually responding to what I wrote. It is absolutely possible to protest without hurting innocent bystanders.

If your standard for "hurting innocent bystanders" is to mildly inconvenience some people by causing them to seek an alternative route, then no, it's not possible to have an effective protest under that standard.

The right to protest is generally accepted to mean that people are allowed to walk in the street in an effort to be heard.

I responded to what you wrote, and your arguments fall flat. Even during massive protests with millions of people ambulances get where they need to get and doctors go where they need to go.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#549

Post by [deleted] »

jariel wrote: post #547
ashtonkem wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is literally a different argument though. Now you're arguing about the difference between civil disobedience (which necessarily involves breaking norms or laws) and simple protest. This is a fair distinction, but genuinely a tedious one. Yes, standing around in the street is illegal, that's the point. We're not going to work out anything new here that hasn't been discussed over the past century. What I'm reactin…

??? So you fully support anti-abortion protestors blocking the entrance to abortion clinics? That's 'civil disobedience' and 'breaking the law' for the 'content of speech' (in their view) of 'saving lives'? Seems pretty legit? Saving lives? What about White Supremacists burning down 'desegregated schools' in protest of 'desegregation'? Or some 'burning crosses' on the streets in front of the NAACP? I mean, hey, it's…

[deleted]

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#550

Post by [deleted] »

jariel wrote: post #547
ashtonkem wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is literally a different argument though. Now you're arguing about the difference between civil disobedience (which necessarily involves breaking norms or laws) and simple protest. This is a fair distinction, but genuinely a tedious one. Yes, standing around in the street is illegal, that's the point. We're not going to work out anything new here that hasn't been discussed over the past century. What I'm reactin…

??? So you fully support anti-abortion protestors blocking the entrance to abortion clinics? That's 'civil disobedience' and 'breaking the law' for the 'content of speech' (in their view) of 'saving lives'? Seems pretty legit? Saving lives? What about White Supremacists burning down 'desegregated schools' in protest of 'desegregation'? Or some 'burning crosses' on the streets in front of the NAACP? I mean, hey, it's…

[deleted]
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