Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#541

Post by HBKXNCUO » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #481

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can't pay those costs unless you are suggesting some kind of communal child raising situation rather than having children raised by their parents. Raising children well requires a lot of time and effort. I don't think it's defeatist to acknowledge that. If you want to try to improve that, find some way to raise children without needing so much of their parents' time and energy and without sacrificing q…

A number of issues with what you said: - daycare (including fancy stuff like daycare on your work's campus where you can join your kid in between work activitie)s is a great idea that has already been tested - it is perfectly reasonable for the extended family to help with child-rearing, especially in location where there is a history of that - It seems crazy to me to suggest we change the ways we raise children, wit…

Daycare, the act of handing your infants and toddlers over to minimum wage workers who do not care about your children on an individual basis and who are also supposed to be taking care of several other children, is not a great idea, or even a good idea. It's a bad idea. For any decent parent, it would be a last resort before giving the children up for adoption.

Yes of course it's great when the extended family can help. That doesn't happen much in the modern world. It would be great if it did though.

>a comparatively trivial thing to do is to realign employee and employer incentives. And there are governments that do that successfully.

What does that mean? I think it's defeatist to want so many people slaving away for corporate masters rather than spending time with their families.

>Stop projecting your view of the world on everyone

I don't know what that means. I'm not going to stop advocating that people make lifestyle choices that I think are best, because as a father of a young child, my child is going to grow up in a world populated by the children that are the result of the lifestyle choices people are making today, and I would prefer for him to be surrounded by people that have been raised as well as possible.

>but it is not the only possible way to have a healthy family.

It is by far the best way to ensure you have a healthy family that we know of.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#542

Post by bashinator » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

legostormtroopr wrote: post #535

durandal1 wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't afford an employee going on paternity/maternity leave, you have an unsustainable business.

Or you have a small business. Not every company is a 10,000 headcount multinational. Over 90% of small business employ fewer than 20 people and small businesses make up 30% of the economy. Realistically, 1 person missing from a small business can mean 10% of their workforce is gone - and due to the size of the company they may not have people to cover the missing staff.

If small businesses in general can't afford an employee going on [mp]aternity leave, that seems like an argument for socializing the cost.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#543

Post by codingmess » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

socialdemocrat wrote: post #172

codingmess wrote: post #141

"to get fathers to spend time with their children" I'm all for fathers spending time with their children, but this kind of framing annoys me. The feminist narrative, which governments seem to swallow, is that fathers don't want to spend time with their children, and force mothers out of their careers. The reality is probably that it is primarily a financial issue. Fathers spending more time with their children means…

> The feminist narrative, which governments seem to swallow, is that fathers don't want to spend time with their children, and force mothers out of their careers. I think that is all in your head because you are so anti feminism. Look we have been through this in Norway for years now. Reality is that many men felt uncomfortable making that choice because there was an expectation in society that staying home with your…

There are not many countries where you get full pay. Full pay makes it a different matter.

And again, I am all for fathers taking time off to spend with their kids. I just think the narrative is harmful.

Harmful to women, actually, who tend to be forced out of their motherhood privileges by well-meaning laws.

As for "fathers feeling uncomfortable", I am not buying it. That is just in people's head and could be remedied with a little propaganda (some TV shows telling people it's fine to take time off as a father). Finances on the other hand are a real world issue.

Seriously, you would forego spending time with your children because it makes you uncomfortable that society might frown upon it? There are no real repercussions, just a mild feeling of uneasiness?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#544

Post by codingmess » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 10:57 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #239

codingmess wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - it really is about 20000€ the government gives to families.

"gives" after taking almost double in taxes. And I will surely have more years paying tons of taxes than paternity leaves. Forgive them, Milton, for they don't know what they are saying.

What do you mean by "taking double in taxes"? Yes, parents also pay taxes, although usually less than single people because of the "split income". It is still a net transfer of money from single people to parents. (Not only for parental leave, also schools for example, or even free childcare in many places).

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#545

Post by tropo » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #465

scrollbar wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to downplay the importance of your fathering and nurturing your child's passions at all- My understanding of the research around personality development is that something like 80% (BS statistic I know) of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. The early few years are when we get conditioned with the core emotional programming: "I am safe" vs. "I am at risk" - "I am lovable" vs. "I am unlov…

80% of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. There's just a huge difference between a 3-month-old baby, who can't recognize faces yet and spends most of the day sleeping and eating, and a 3-year-old child who is running, jumping, telling stories, making friends, and learning to read. For a 3-month-old baby, I doubt that parents do much more than a random babysitter. For a 3-year-old child, th…

We hope for "a 3-year-old child who is running, jumping, telling stories, making friends, and learning to read."

It could also be biting, jumping off of tables, hiding poo, poking holes in drywall, poking both ends of the dog, hitting sleeping parents with tools, and learning to scribble in books.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#546

Post by Broken_Hippo » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 11:16 PM UTC

MadWombat wrote: post #423

gnud wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These policies have definitively contributed to a big social change. And while it looks on the surface like this is about "fairness for dad", on a macro level the changes mostly benefit women who want to both have kids and a career. It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids. At my job, I also see way more dads staying home wit…

> It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids True. But now it is a risk to hire people in certain age groups in general. Could this become a "don't hire married people in their late 20s and early 30s" incentive?

* Could this become a "don't hire married people in their late 20s and early 30s" incentive?*

No. The only real way to avoid this is to just not hire folks who can birth or father children. You'd be mostly safe hiring folks over 45 (Though men over 45 would be more risky than women). This probably isn't a good strategy for an employer.

Marriage doesn't lend itself to children: Having sex does. Having a stable relationship does. Adoption does. On the other hand, lots of married folks don't have children, on purpose or by circumstance. There is no real way to sort folks out.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#547

Post by kaybe » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 11:19 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #513

rtkwe wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's a pattern you see in most places with any kind of shared pool. The father takes a small, frequently the legal minimum time, and the mother takes the rest. Ultimately it kind of makes the most sense because it is the woman that's gone through the most work of giving birth and is a natural food source for the kid but it does perpetuate the issue of women's careers being set back by having a kid.

When they have that much freedom, can you really call it "perpetuating the issue" instead of "doing what they want"? It's not an issue for the women who prefer to do it, or they wouldn't be doing it.

It's an issue for everyone. When you can expect any younger woman to suddenly take a year off they become a larger hiring risk compared to men. Equalizing the parental leave time changes things also for those without children.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#548

Post by souprock » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 11:19 PM UTC

Jolter wrote: post #263

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

Swedish parental leave can be saved until the kid turns 12. Not that the 480 days will last that long, of course!

From another comment, it looks like the father only gets half, but I assume you get weekends off too. Sweden also has 25 days of vacation.

I have a kid about every 600 days. (have 12 so far) Out of that 600 days, it looks like I'd work just 164 days. It would be 2-day weeks for decades.

That is quite a way to run a country. I think it only works because there are very few births in Sweden.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#549

Post by krastanov » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #541

krastanov wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A number of issues with what you said: - daycare (including fancy stuff like daycare on your work's campus where you can join your kid in between work activitie)s is a great idea that has already been tested - it is perfectly reasonable for the extended family to help with child-rearing, especially in location where there is a history of that - It seems crazy to me to suggest we change the ways we raise children, wit…

Daycare, the act of handing your infants and toddlers over to minimum wage workers who do not care about your children on an individual basis and who are also supposed to be taking care of several other children, is not a great idea, or even a good idea. It's a bad idea. For any decent parent, it would be a last resort before giving the children up for adoption. Yes of course it's great when the extended family can h…

I do not know where you are coming from, but our surroundings must be extremely different. This is why I am saying you should not project your assumptions on everyone.

Why do you assume that daycare staff are minimal wage workers as opposed to well paid professionals that know more about intellectual enrichment and child psychology than the average parent?

Why are you assuming a career means "slaving away for corporate masters" as opposed to a myriad of ways one can work to enrich the world around them while at the same time being paid (academia, small business, art/design work, community work, the vast majority of lifestyle business, social purpose work, solving intellectually interesting technical problems, etc)? There are people that love their creative jobs, and we should not pretend they are unicorns or that they have to sacrifice their child's upbringing.

What you describe sounds borderline selfish to me. I get you are trying to suggest something good, but a person can make the world better (and even be paid for it) without compromising how much they care for their child.

Maybe I am talking like that because I am privileged and have an easy life. But then why not advocate that our communities try to make more people's lives easier?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#550

Post by codingmess » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 11:21 PM UTC

ryanmercer wrote: post #176

codingmess wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - it really is about 20000€ the government gives to families.

Wow, threads on here constantly make me wish I lived in Germany as it sounds like German has really awesome employment protection too.

In my opinion, the best protection is to have valuable skills. I personally see no good reason for employment protection. I live in Germany, however, as a freelancer I get no protection at all. Why do some people deserve it, and others don't? What makes an "employee"?

I can understand having to "insure" against the risk of becoming too specialized. Like if you work for one company for years or decades, it might be difficult to find employment elsewhere. However, that insurance should be factored into the contracts "employees" are willing to accept. Likewise as a freelancer, I have to ask for a certain minimum amount of money to cover my risks.

Even for employees the protection might have downsides. They are stuck with inefficient coworkers who can't be fired.If you are young, you'll have to leave before people who are older. And employees might stick to jobs where they are not doing their best for too long. And overall, creation of business is hampered, which hurts everybody.

Just some thoughts.