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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

arguing in bad faith seems unnecessary when there's so much authentically wrong with their view

I don't see that as bad faith. Companies have weird diversity goals to do with physical features of their bodies and sexual preferences. Pedophiles are just part of that. They happen to be a marginalized group, but that's the thing about being marginalized, you get pushed to the margins and not advocated for by big companies and popular blogs. Perhaps if you went back to the days of women's liberation and somebody sa…

You're outside the current Overton window, quick, hide!

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#542
post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really care whether or not your feelings constitute "racism," but I don't hold it against you. What I call racist is that you suggest an interview by people of a different race is biased against you.

No he didn't. But it very well might be (biased against him). Racism exists. Racism is widespread. People in populations that are targeted by racism are much more familiar with what racism is present than those of us in untargeted populations. Much racism is subtle and implicit. If you can logically accept those statements, then I don't see how you can claim to know how likely the presence of bias might be. And worry…

Your statements are irrelevant because he didn't claim that there was any racism against him in the interviews. Only that the interviewers were a different race and that made h

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A while back, I did rough envelope calculations that if one of the major FAANG companies hit their diversity goal, there would be none left for any of the rest of them. Not to mention, if the other companies also wish to hit their diversity goals, they will be forced to take on weaker hires, since the (already small) pool of adequate hires has been exhausted. In my opinion, diversity hiring is an anti-pattern. Hiri…

Common practice is to ignore diversity (to the extent possible) in assessing, but not in sourcing.

How can that work for Google or Tesla or any other company that everyone knows about, where anyone who wants to work there is likely to apply?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I see few people discuss in terms of Asian and affirmative action, is that the immigration system overwhelmingly selects the wealthy, smart or other desirable qualities for all immigrants. And due to historical reasons like Chinese Exclusion Act, majority Asians in America had to go through those filters, or their parents had to. Of course those people are going to succeed more than the average Americans wh…

They may bring down the average somewhat, but all the East Asians in the world do have a higher average IQ than all the white people in the world. So random unmotivated Asians (I presume you don't include Indians) are still likely to perform better than random unmotivated Americans.

> East Asians in the world do have a higher average IQ than all the white people in the world

citation needed

> some fact about all white people > basing on it, assesing statement about Americans

Americans are not all white people (in fact, many of them are not white), so you can't make statistical statements based on that.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#545
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example recursion, pointers, closures, and class hierarchies. > My suspicion is that one or more of these concepts is more of a barrier for women than men. Seems like quite a stretch, given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations. Add to that that the hard sciences like…

> given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations. Doing rote arithmetic is nothing like doing mathematics. Doing manual calculations is nothing like being a programmer. The activities have zero resemblance. Also, advanced mathematics degrees (i.e. Masters and above) have the sa…

Also, advanced mathematics degrees (i.e. Masters and above) have the same gender parity as computer science.

Not so fast. See https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/fraction-p... to verify that the percentage is a bit under 30% for women in mathematics and around 20% for women in computer science.

Also note that the ratios graduating with a BSc and a PhD are very different. There are a lot of challenges around the PhD program that have kept women out. (Challenges like, "long time spent poor during prime child bearing years".)

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#546

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

How is this the top rated comment? It swats down the post based on points that the post has already addressed: > Why do we place the blame and assign malice of intent to those who have little control over the constraints? The post suggests searching and hiring outside of the traditional pipeline, which is something that is within control. The comment is then topped off with a strawman argument: > If we put actual per…

[deleted]

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#547
post #27

I know it is not politically correct to say it, but I remain unconvinced that gender parity is a desirable goal. Particularly given the current state of research into differences in gender averages. Here is a real example. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_visualization_ability#... men have about a one standard deviation advantage in spacial reasoning over women. Assuming that both distributions are normal wi…

I wrote a few direct responses, but they all felt patronizing. Apologies for the length, but I'm hoping to avoid that by showing my math, as it were: About 7 years ago, I started to wonder about a cluster of concepts that I've yet to successfully explain to anyone without getting a confused look... Roughly, it's a curiosity about what (if anything) is in the joints and gaps and shadows around the more salient feature…

The Wikipedia article picks one of many pieces of research to quote. Your criticism are fair as a criticism of that specific research paper. But after you've looked at a dozen of them, continuing to say that it is just an artifact of terrible methodology (even though most actually are terrible) becomes much harder to support.

But that said, here is a classic test showing strong gender differences accidentally discovered by Piaget. Draw two cups, one tilted. Assuming that both are halfway full of water, ask the subject to draw the water line.

Until puberty, neither gender can perform this task well. After puberty around 90% of men and 30% of women find it trivial, while the rest do not. (The most common answer that I have seen from women is to tilt the water line with the cup. The second is to tilt it double!) Performance on this task is not particularly correlated with education.

Ask a few friends and family, and it isn't hard to verify for yourself that a gender gap exists.

Interestingly I have yet to encounter a programmer, male or female, that doesn't find it trivial. I have no idea why programming would select for people who find this task easy. but it apparently does. And the population of people who find this task straightforward has 3x as many men in it as women.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#548
post #222

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I don't have a problem with most of my coworkers (male and female) being Asian. In fact, I prefer it. I'm not Asian, but the majority of my friends, classmates, and coworkers throughout my life have been, and that continues even now during my career in tech. Whenever I see anything related to affirmative action being discussed nowadays, I think that it's only a matter of…

Could you write a glossary for that post.

SWE = SoftWare Engineer

URM = Under Represented Minority (I think)

PRC = People's Republic of China.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that there is indeed a pipeline problem; however there is still much scope for improvement at workplaces. Notably, gender balance is not only skewed at the point of hiring; in fact, the skew gets worse and worse as one goes up through the ranks.

Do you think the numbers would change appreciably if the entire hiring process was boiled down to a multiple-choice exam, with no humans besides the applicant involved, which chose who gets hired based on the first applicant to pass it?

Yes, you would get more men and less women than now as men do better on such tests while women do better on tests with more social cues such as interviews or writing resumes.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#550
post #318

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

Every company can't hit 50/50, but it is obviously possible for any one company to hit 50/50, without compromising on their hiring bar. (Until everyone adopts that same mentality, at which point it, of course, becomes impossible.) Also, just because you have a goal to aspire to doesn't mean you can realistically meet it. Suppose if every high achiever in a school wants to be valedictorian, but only one of them will m…

> but it is obviously possible for any one company to hit 50/50, without compromising on their hiring bar

How? If I interview a bunch of people for programming positions and pick the 10 best men and 10 best women, which group do you think will be best? Statistically I have considered several times more men than women, so the male group will almost surely be stronger. The only way to avoid this is to intentionally pick bad men, or if I just randomly ignore 83% of their resumes.

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