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How America lost its love for the stick shift

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Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest disadvantage autos still have versus manuals is their larger size and higher parasitic power loss. Americans tend to drive both larger and more powerful cars where the drawbacks of the auto over the manual are pretty much insignificant. Smaller European cars with lower power figures have more difficulty physically fitting the automatic transmission and the power loss from the torque converter is more noti…

I'm a car noob, but how is physically fitting automation into a device difficult? Isn't it a tiny chip on a board?

An automatic transmission and manual transmission actually have very different physical designs.

Manual transmissions typically consist mainly of a locking mechanism that is physically moved with the shifter for gear selection and a clutch plate to couple the transmission to the engine. Typically you have one physical gear for every logical gear, and you're using the shifter to physically connect to the gear you want to use. The clutch plate is a friction material, and you press it against the flywheel (which connects to the engine) for them to stick together; press them together and the engine spins the transmission, pull them apart and you're in neutral.

In your typical automatic transmission, instead of having a physical gear for every logical gear, you have multiple sets of planetary gearsets (typically 3 sets for a 6 speed). Each planetary gearset has its own clutch to allow different parts of the planetary gearset to spin, allowing for multiple different ratios. The computer controls which clutches are applied to make the right ratio for the "gear" you're in. A torque converter is used to connect an automatic transmission to the engine instead of a clutch. Torque converters are two fans facing each other submerged in liquid, when one fan spins, it moves the liquid which spins the other fan.

Planetary gearsets of the auto transmission are typically bigger than simple gears, and the torque convertor with two fans and liquid is significantly bigger than a clutch plate which is just a flat disk.

Now you're thinking, why can't a computer just control the clutch plate movement. Well, BMW tried it with their SMG gearbox. Turns out computers aren't very good at determining how much force to apply to the clutch (which also wears over time) so that the car doesn't jerk or lag, much less figure out whether you wanted aggressive clutch engagement or you wanted the clutch to slip. Compared to letting physics do it's thing in a torque converter, a computer controlling a moving part was also much more complicated and less reliable and less predictable. The computer is already not very good at predicting what gear you want to be in, it was also not good at predicting how direct you wanted your power applied. So it ended up being worst of both worlds, none of the simplicity of a true manual, and none of the smoothness of a typical auto.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#542
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you said - that's what the hand brake is for. Performing a hill start correctly is often part of driving tests in the UK.

Not all cars have hand operated emergency brakes.

I've never in my life seen a manual car that doesn't have a hand brake.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't at all understand this mentality that stick shift is a burden in stop and go traffic. I've since switched to a motorcycle, but when I used to drive stick I can't say I ever really noticed or paid attention to the fact that I was having to shift, even in stop and go traffic. After you've gotten comfortable with shifting it just fades completely into the background.

> Yeah, I don't at all understand this mentality that stick shift is a burden in stop and go traffic. It's a burden if you're stuck in bad traffic, if you've got a heavy clutch, or if you're crawling up a hill. Worse if you've got more than one of those compounding factors.

My Mazda 6 manual has a very smooth and light clutch and “hill assist” where the car will brake for you on hills as you ease into gear. It’s an awesome combo and I get virtually no fatigue from driving in stop and go traffic trough hilly areas. My old manual though was another story- you’d have a sore leg after a long drive in bad traffic, and getting stopped on a steep hill with the automatic drivers crawling right up to your rear was nerve wracking.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't at all understand this mentality that stick shift is a burden in stop and go traffic. I've since switched to a motorcycle, but when I used to drive stick I can't say I ever really noticed or paid attention to the fact that I was having to shift, even in stop and go traffic. After you've gotten comfortable with shifting it just fades completely into the background.

> Yeah, I don't at all understand this mentality that stick shift is a burden in stop and go traffic. It's a burden if you're stuck in bad traffic, if you've got a heavy clutch, or if you're crawling up a hill. Worse if you've got more than one of those compounding factors.

If the clutch is a problem, it's time to change the master or the clutch cylinder or change the car.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#545

There's little argument for manual transmission anymore except in larger vehicles. There used to be an efficiency gap, in that a good manual driver was more efficient than an automatic. But two things have happened since then, we have computer controlled transmissions and CVTs. Manual drivers were more efficient because they learned when the vehicle would need to shift, and shifted preemptively. A computer controlled…

> There's little argument for manual transmission anymore except in larger vehicles.

Why has "having fun" disappeared from people's list of requirements in a vehicle?

CVT's are boring to drive. Extremely boring.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just do like the truckers do, leave it in second and crawl. It helps to not be concerned with maintaining a 6 inch gap with the car ahead. I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. All of the brake tapping tends to bunch people up at the end of long lines forcing them to a complete stop. In a manual just let off on the gas a little and the engine brakes a little, no brake lights to create cascading…

I don't know where you live that you can stay in 2nd and crawl. Where I live, the moment you leave a few inches between your front bumper and the car in front of you, someone is guaranteed to cut you off and force you to brake to prevent hitting them. When I say "inches", I mean inches - 6-8 inches of space is enough for someone to think "I'll just squeeze in here".

Isn't that against the regulations?

We were taught that squeezing in is forbidden unless you're heading for an exit or something like that.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#547
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'...so it definitely prevents a lot of phone usage. From the UK, where stick shift is very much the norm, it doesn't.

I doubt it prevents it, but I think it might lessen it. I remember at one point in my teens seeing someone driving a manual Miata in traffic while putting on makeup, texting and drinking a soda, all in a car famous for not having cup holders. It was pretty impressive...

I'll concede widespread automatic usage here would lead to even more mobile phone usage.

It's common here to see people texting while driving and I don't understand what goes through people's minds to make them think this isn't a crazy thing to do?

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you never merge or change lanes in heavy traffic? Because if you’ve ever done any of those things, you rely on people leaving space and letting you in. Why deny others the same opportunities? Driving in traffic is a cooperative activity. The only times you don’t need to accommodate and be accommodated by other drivers are when there are hardly any around.

> Why deny others the same opportunities? Almost exclusively these people will zip around a line and force their way in at the end. Even kindergartners are taught budging in line is not good. Why is this the problem on the people actually being considerate and are in the correct lane at the appropriate time?

Because merging early is worse. How is creating an artificial backup in one lane considerate?

I find it inconsiderate frankly, because it forces an arbitrary decision rather then just patiently using the available road as marked.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2018/07/0...

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#549

Speaking as someone who has owned a number of sports cars with manual transmissions, I can tell you why I finally made the switch to automatic: Adaptive cruise control in stop and go traffic. I used to have to deal with a six-speed manual transmission in stop and go traffic for an hour every day, and it was pure torture. I mean, sure, it was fun for a weekend drive in the mountains, but it sucked the rest of the time…

Driving a manual car isn't about efficiency. It is about driver engagement. Yes, you can row your own gears with paddle shifters, but no automatic will ever give you the same kind of engagement or connectedness with the car as a manual with three pedals will. But yes, if there is a smoking gun for the death of the manual in America, it would be our crumbling, congested roads and absurdly long daily commutes.

"You've got more control over the car because you're shifting your own gears instead of waiting for the car to shift for you," from the article sums it up. I recently bought my first car with cruise control, still manual transmission, and while I find it useful at times, it also makes the driving experience more relaxed, and not necessarily in a good way.

However, I'm all for the aspect of automatic transmission changing gears at the right moment to get as much power out of the engine as possible. But it doesn't weigh up the disconnected feeling they provide on my behalf.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#550
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Spain and I don't think I've seen an automatic in my entire life and it's also not possible to get a licence for an automatic car.

I rented a car in Bilbao recently - reserved a manual, got an automatic (presumably because I'm an American, and they assumed I'd ruin the clutch on a manual transmission). So, that's one way to see an automatic :). When you say it's not possible to get a license for an automatic car, do you mean it's not possible to get tested for a driving license with an automatic?

Yes, that.
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