Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#541

Post by cmurf » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:07 AM UTC

dcow wrote: post #300

mlloyd wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument here is that intolerance wants to have a voice. They feel persecuted because people don't view their intolerant viewpoints as points to be debated but rather ideals to be shunned. This all stems from the sexist Ex-Google guy who is butthurt that he can't write a sexist manifesto at work and have his co-workers debate him on the science, but rather be fired and ostracizedfor expousing discriminatory views…

The argument here is that people like you label anything you don't agree with as "intolerant" and justify social lynching of the ideas based on your likely angry or frustrated emotional assessment. This didn't start with James, although that's one of the more popular incidents. Disagreeing with operational policies that are based on politically charged ideas that we need to correct for the inequalities in outcomes ra…

Meritocracy is incompetent. It is trust destroying because it's inherently corrupt. The privileged, the elite, control the metric by which merit is defined and judged. They create a system of self-preservation that excludes others who would dilute their control. There is no such thing as privilege, elitism, without exclusion and inferiority. Meritocracy always leads to the very thing it purports to try and avoid: incompetency. And that is why it is incompetent.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#542

Post by avmich » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:07 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #531

bsbechtel wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brendan Eich, James Damore?

OP is clearly talking about people he personally knows. I have to say I concur with OP, but that’s just anecdote. Looking at 2016 voting habits in the Bay Area, Donald Trump got double digit election returns in every county. That’s not even factoring "never Trump" conservatives who voted 3rd party or stayed home. So there are a fair amount of conservatives here. For comparison there are more Trump voters in San Franc…

Did you include those who didn't vote, but would vote for Democrats? In other words, double digit election returns are from those who voted, or "votes for Trump as percent of eligible voters"?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#543

Post by telchar » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:17 AM UTC

dcow wrote: post #445

wpietri wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, intolerance is a specific term of art here, not just anything lefties don't like. For example, look at the US right's decades-long pursuit of anti-GLBTQ policies. Gay people mostly just want to be left alone to live their lives. the US right wants to use the power of the state to discriminate against them. It went so far in California that Prop 8 specifically rewrote the constitution to strip the right of equal p…

You are right. My apologies if I implied this only happens on "the left". There's a lot of context in this thread so I didn't feel the need to caveat. However, "social lynching" is not an absurd term. While everyone has a right to express their opinion and face the consequences thereof, social lynching occurs when people mob together and demand, pressure, or otherwise effectively execute physical consequences for a u…

I would suggest trying to use a different term than "social lynching". It is a hyperbolic word that describes actions that are quite out of proportion with what might be called "actual lynching". Loss of a specific, typically rarified, job is far less consequential than death.

Using that term is going ensure that a large portion of the population disregards your argument out of disgust (at the co-opting of a historically powerful word for political points). Use it if you like, but you should expect that it will lose you debates if you do. There is probably a different term you could come up with that would be better received.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#544

Post by ScottBurson » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:20 AM UTC

Splatter wrote: post #468

andybak wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being against racial diversity is racist That made me stop and think. I'm trying to imagine a picture of someone who is against racial diversity but isn't remotely racist and whilst I agree there's no logical contradiction inherent in that position I do struggle to think of a realistic portrait of such an individual. I might be missing something here but can you spell out this position for me in a bit more detail?…

I'm not racist and, as you would expect me to say, have over the years made several close friends of widely-varying races. (As an aside, isn't it part of the problem that I even have to open my comment on this topic by expressing my non-racist bonafides?) In over two decades of work in corporate as well as entrepreneurial environments, I've not seen a difference in efficacy within groups that would be attributed to b…

The argument for technical people is not that a more diverse group per se produces better results (although that argument is made for some other professions, such as marketing). The argument is rather that by restricting the candidate pool based on irrelevant attributes like ethnicity or gender, one is likely to overlook good candidates and thereby reduce the overall competence of the team.

I would expect you to agree with this since you say you haven't observed a systematic difference in performance between these groups. No?

My own thinking is that it's good to invite a diverse applicant pool, but final hiring decisions shouldn't use diversity except as a tie-breaker. At the same time one should try to be aware of one's own biases, and rigorously careful not to devalue candidates unlike oneself.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#545

Post by rmrm » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:31 AM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #466

rmrm wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are both pretty openly xenophobic, no? I didnt think that was in any debate. If your point is that racism isnt the sole province of white people - yes, thats worth remembering. White American liberals (which I am) seem to struggle with allowing their world view to incorporate things like this.

No, I feel that the point is rather different, pointing towards a difference between xenophobia and racism. In USA, the nation is mixed, heterogenous, and thus being anti-diversity unavoidably involves some discrimination of your fellow citizens, being an asshole to some groups of them; and justifying this discrimination tends to require some racist arguments. In homogenous countries like Japan, the issue is differen…

I think you have a point, but I don't tend to think to consider the current state of all nation states and their dominant cultures as static. 1000 years from now, I imagine much will have changed. Which may or may not involve closed nations to address many of the same issues we in America face. I think we can see this in Europe now.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#546

Post by lr4444lr » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:31 AM UTC

askafriend wrote: post #70

superquest wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"openly supporting" the winning presidential candidate isn't "absurd".

Yes it is. When you support Trump, you support his vile brand of leadership. The majority in this the country do not support this man or his ideas. They simply don't. The base that supported him and made this presidency possible is collapsing by all reported metrics (as in they are literally dying off, and younger people neither support Trump's ideas nor are they as religious). So while Trump's base may have squeezed…

When people supported Malcolm X, did they support his anti-semitism as well?

Older people almost always have disproportionately higher turnout in elections.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#547

Post by bsder » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:34 AM UTC

So we should all take a lesson from how people in the Bible belt treat those who are agnostic or atheist, right?

If the Valley is such a "liberal echo chamber", why is it that women, homosexual, transsexuals, etc. are the ones still receiving the death threats.

When I see rich, conservative, white men shivering in fear from getting death threats for expressing their religious or political beliefs, I'll worry about your "echo chamber" my precious fragile little snowflakes.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#548

Post by rmrm » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:36 AM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #538

PeterisP wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I feel that the point is rather different, pointing towards a difference between xenophobia and racism. In USA, the nation is mixed, heterogenous, and thus being anti-diversity unavoidably involves some discrimination of your fellow citizens, being an asshole to some groups of them; and justifying this discrimination tends to require some racist arguments. In homogenous countries like Japan, the issue is differen…

> In USA, the nation is mixed, heterogenous, and thus being anti-diversity unavoidably involves some discrimination of your fellow citizens, being an asshole to some groups of them; and justifying this discrimination tends to require some racist arguments. I'm anti-diversity not because I don't believe races exist, I'm anti-diversity because I think hiring people for the color of the skin is itself racist. Affirmativ…

I think it is an unsettling reaction to have your predominant thought upon seeing a woman or non white male in a position of authority to assume it is because of their gender or race. I find it hard to believe you are not able to find other logical reasons for ot, so it sounds like a choice youve made to view the world through that lense.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#549

Post by Rebelgecko » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

tessierashpool wrote: post #498

dreit1 wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the exact type of commentary the article is talking. This conservative strawman you’ve built is far from average. In this absurd, inflammatory commentary replace the conservative boogeyman with a Muslim boogeyman or a gay boogeyman and realize you’re using the exact same type of rhetoric as the people you despise

is it absurd to claim that the NRA's refusal to compromise re assault weapons has led to the death of many kids in American schools? what is the absurd part here? how many kids can a gay person be alleged to have killed just by being gay? there is no conservative boogeyman in my post. I am referring to the practical effects of policy decisions.

> is it absurd to claim that the NRA's refusal to compromise re assault weapons has led to the death of many kids in American schools?

Honestly I think it is, although if I were having a discussion with a coworker I would couch it in slightly different terms, because many of my coworkers aren't very familiar with guns. e.g. defining assault weapons (varies depending on locale), asking why they are concerned about this like bayonet lugs, are they aware of anyone who has been killed by a bayonet charge in the US since the Civil War, what's wrong with barrel shrouds, etc

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#550

Post by astura » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 1:40 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #312

_skel wrote: post #169

I don't get it. I grew up in Silicon Valley and I work in tech, and so do many other people I know. They run the gamut from far-left socialists to libertarians to own a bunch of guns. They have all kinds of ethnic backgrounds and religious views. Some of my most libertarian/pro-gun friends have not been shy about their political views and it hasn't hurt their tech careers at all. They are far more welcome here than l…

Conservative propaganda has learned from the left how powerful victimology, feeling persecuted, is. White resentment is through the roof when I talk politics with a lot of my white friends.

I find this new conservative victimhood mentality absolutely fascinating. I know someone who is a self described conservative who thinks he's being persecuted by society because of, of all things, having children. Not a ton of children, mind you, and not ones he can't afford, and not out of wedlock.

Having children is literally the most socially acceptable thing you can do amongst almost all political ideologies. Its incredibly common and parents are held up on a pedestal just for existing.

But he thinks the liberal elites are somehow out to get him for being a parent and he's a persecuted minority. He's said "liking being a parent is such an unpopular opinion."

He has a million other benign things he thinks he's being persecuted for but the kids thing is just the most bizarre and totally detached from reality.

It's like, you'd have to totally ignore reality to have this viewpoint... At the same time it seems like a really sad life.

I wonder if they actually believe this shit or it's just a means to an end.