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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

blog.cloudflare.com

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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#541

Post by bookmarkacc »

wolco wrote: post #539

Cloudflaire did a lot damage today by releasing that statement. It's one thing to have a policy or guideline that would ban a site like this. To have the CEO tell us he woke up in a bad mood and decided to kick this site off of the internet sends the message cloudflaire's service isn't a stable place governed by rules and policies. Cloudflaire CEO moods will dictate policy. I always felt Cloudflaire was a hotpot serv…

He stays in the article The Daily Stormers claim tbat cloudflair was a supporter of them because of their hosting.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#542

Post by jachee »

leereeves wrote: post #356
derefr wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. The damage of libel is reputational damage. Getting the libelous claim retracted after the claim has been seen by the public doesn't undo or erase the damage the claim does. Usually you have to do something drastic to actively disprove the libelous claim, if you w…

If TDS did make such a claim publicly enough to cause reputational damage, there should be evidence we can all see. Anyone know where that evidence is?

Why are you being a Nazi sympathizer?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#543

Post by jachee »

ryanx435 wrote: post #517
derefr wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it corruption when a governor issues a pardon, or a president vetoes a bill? The point of an Executive is to be able to do act-utilitarian evaluations of context, while the organization itself is stuck following rule-utilitarianism.

How do you feel about bakeries refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings? Pretty sure this is the same concept.

Being a Nazi shithead is a choice.

Edit: downvote all you want. Parent is making a false equivalency and I'm just calling them on it.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#544

Post by nippples »

hashberry wrote: post #110

> The tipping point for us making this decision was that the team behind Daily Stormer made the claim that we were secretly supporters of their ideology. For those interested in more info behind this statement[0]: In a post, [The Daily Stormer] site’s architect, Andrew Auernheimer, said he had personal relationships with people at Cloudflare, and they had assured him the company would work to protect the site in a va…

> The tipping point for us making this decision was that the team behind Daily Stormer made the claim that we were secretly supporters of their ideology.

Would it have been possible to deal with this problem this way instead: http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-personal-injuries/defama...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#545

Post by genon »

pessimizer wrote: post #483
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

Nazis aren't a protected class, yet. Do you think that businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against skateboarders, or people who refuse to wear shirts and shoes? Not that you can't think that, but it's a weird personal ideology that calls for explanation and argument, not some pronouncement of what should or should not be done. I'm pretty sure you can make the argument why gay people, women and racial or r…

> Do you think that businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against skateboarders, or people who refuse to wear shirts and shoes?

I don't believe that businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone who is behaving in a lawful manner.

Is that belief what you're calling a "weird personal ideology"?

> Do you have an similar argument for why Nazis shouldn't be fired, or why we shouldn't consider whether the people that we do business with employ, or are, Nazis?

If someone's beliefs don't negatively affect their ability to do their job, why should they be fired for their beliefs? Should Democrats be fired? Should atheists? Are "Nazis" the only people capable of bias and discrimination?

Likewise, why should someone's beliefs be a factor in whether I do business with them? If I'm buying something from someone why would anything other than price and quality of the product or service even come up?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#546

Post by PeanutCurry »

reitanqild wrote: post #467
PeanutCurry wrote: post #341

I'm obviously being a bit facetious when I say this, but are there really few things worse than nazis? I'm not expert on the subject of neo-nazis or the nazi movement, so maybe this seems more complex because of my position of ignorance. But none of the statistics seem to imply that nazis are more than simply intellectually repulsive and socially disgusting. That's not to say that nazi affiliated groups never commit…

I'm not expert on the subject of neo-nazis or the nazi movement, so maybe this seems more complex because of my position of ignorance. But none of the statistics seem to imply that nazis are more than simply intellectually repulsive and socially disgusting. Eh. The statistics about nazism is clear: they have killed a few million people over the last 100 years. That is more than about everyone else except maybe the va…

I don't see how that's a particularly useful view of what the statistics reflect, especially since I clarified in the same post you quoted that I was speaking with regard to nazism in the modern context.

Further, it wasn't simply nazis in the abstract that killed those few million people, it was nazi controlled Germany. It seems dishonest to ignore that aspect of the history because you gloss over all of the political maneuvering allowed the nazi party to become the force that it was such as the Reichstag Fire Decree. On top of this you ignore the history of antisemitic racism in early 20th century Europe that allowed the nazi party to gain enough popularity to attain traction as a political party.

Your point that anyone supporting the spread of nazism is supporting the actions of the nazi party that existed in Hitler's Germany is valid. However, in America this sort of speech is not as distinctly illegal as it is in much of (all of?) Europe and so from an American perspective a discussion needs to take place about how to approach the topic because for us blanketly outlawing nazi groups because of their beliefs would erode some part of the general freedom of speech that we operate with. Whether that erosion represents the loss of anything of value is debatable, but it would none the less represent a decrease in our overall speech protections. This is where my point about evaluating and qualifying the reach and influence that groups like this actually have becomes relevant, because a rational discussion would be dependent on this sort of information.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#547

Post by Consultant32452 »

nardi wrote: post #540
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

Gender, race, age, sexual orientation, etc. are “protected classes” that you can’t discriminate on. Being a Nazi is not a protected class. If you have a business, you can feel free to discriminate against Nazis. And you probably should.

If you operate on public infrastructure, like being granted public right of ways to lay fiber, I think you lose the right to discriminate. This feels good because Nazis are assholes but it sets a very dangerous precedent. This is why the ACLU has a long history of defending Nazis and their ilk. Because one day it will be you on the other side. We should all discriminate against Nazis by denouncing them, ignoring them, etc. Public infrastructure should not.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#548

Post by ixtli »

genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

To be fair if being the single worst nazi site on the internet is the thing that gets him so angry he removes a site, thats an exceptionally high bar.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#549

Post by Larrikin »

lovich wrote: post #535
foxylad wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an outrage that businesses that want to enjoy all the benefits of selling to the public can discriminate against members of that public for any spurious or bigoted reason they like. I have a problem with this, because in effect it is saying that if you want to be in business, you have to check your principles at the entrance. I do run a business, and I do reserve the right to withhold service from people whose…

I think that your point would be correct if businesses did not wield the enormous amount of power that they currently do. Who competes with Cloudfare right now? Who competes with AWS? There's already jokes about how if one of those services is down then the internet is down. While everyone might agree currently with getting rid of the Daily Stormer because they are assholes, the precedent and power is now set. For th…

Somebody started these companies. They are free to setup their own Nazi friendly servers and compete head to head.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#550

Post by ixtli »

Iv wrote: post #379
tuna-piano wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so bizarre. He tries to have it both ways. He says "no one should have that power", but then says he did it literally earlier that day. He says CloudFlare isn't changing their "content-neutral" policy... but clearly they did change that policy. I have many reasons to oppose nazis, including incredibly personal ones. That said, I think crossing this content line for an infrastructure company is a big deal, and I…

I am conflicted. On one hand, I totally agree with what you say, on the other hand, the reason I am agreeing is that I fear what a nazi would do with that kind of power.

You should fear this. And you should acknowledge that owners always have this power and the precedence here isn't going to be what enables them to wield it.
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