Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub • Hacker News Board

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#541

Post by empthought » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 12:47 AM UTC

thehardsphere wrote: post #455

gerbal wrote: post #403

How would HN be reacting if this were written by and about a man? There are a lot of gender expectations that punish assertive and matter of fact women as 'bitchy' and 'insensitive'. If a white guy behaves the same way no one thinks twice about it. To me it sounds like management at Github is uncomfortable with her perspectives. We often see women and minorities censured for not trying to conform to the model of a de…

I think if this were a man, the HN reaction would actually be far more negative. As it stands right now, the discussion here is basically a debate over whether or not Coraline was discriminated against in some way, or if she was fired for some legitimate reason. Even if you dispute the facts of this case, there's a potential larger issue about inclusivity and discrimination in tech there that is worth talking about a…

This is a presentation by Coraline given in 2013 at Ruby Midwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TOY4lufIM

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#542

Post by whywhywhywhy » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 1:03 AM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #513

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me you're all arguing about the wrong issue. Some data scientist made a small survey faux pas, and now they're being called out in a lengthy blogpost about how bad and un-inclusive the company was to work for. How can anyone work with this person without feeling like they're standing on eggshells? How must the woman who wrote the survey who was just doing her job feel today if she reads this?

The post would never have been written if the author of the question hadn't immediately escalated by complaining to her manager. The data scientist was not walking on eggshells- they felt perfectly justified in escalating the situation. Even the manager didn't have a problem with how she'd handled it! I read it as an indictment of the company and its procedures. The data scientist was not even named. The bulk of the…

> they felt perfectly justified in escalating the situation

So they should have been, being accused of transphobia is a serious accusation. Anyone accused of anything like transphobia, homophobia, islamaphobia or any other of these discriminations is absolutely right to escalate the matter straight away to their manager or HR.

> The data scientist was not even named

She was gendered, how many data scientists work at GH? How many are female? She was narrowed down enough that she may as well have been named IMHO and transphobic is a serious mark on her character. Especially from someone who has tried to push people off projects before for being transphobic.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#543

Post by kaffee » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 2:22 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #267

kaffee wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The article was welcome and well-written. I only found out about this post because the alternative (unofficial) interface https://hckrnews.com/ manages to surface this given the number of votes it has received. I appreciate HN's moderation, on average. It's a shame the process of moderation isn't more transparent. I have no idea why this was flagged.

[flagged] means users flagged it. Since a lot of people are disagreeing about that and we always try to take guidance from the community, I've turned the flags off on this submission and reduced the software penalty formerly known as the flamewar detector. But FWIW this goes against my better judgment—this thread isn't as civil or substantive as several of the recent ones on related issues have been (I mean in relati…

It might be useful to distinguish between moderator and user actions. What about "[user flagged]"? Given that moderators do have powers, it's easy to be confused about this.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#544

Post by thehardsphere » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 2:30 AM UTC

empthought wrote: post #541

thehardsphere wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if this were a man, the HN reaction would actually be far more negative. As it stands right now, the discussion here is basically a debate over whether or not Coraline was discriminated against in some way, or if she was fired for some legitimate reason. Even if you dispute the facts of this case, there's a potential larger issue about inclusivity and discrimination in tech there that is worth talking about a…

This is a presentation by Coraline given in 2013 at Ruby Midwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TOY4lufIM

I'm not going to watch the entire 30 minute video on my phone.

Is the point you're not actually making that Coraline previously was known as Corey and appeared to be a man?

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#545

Post by jkereako » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 2:45 AM UTC

I get the impression Coraline was confrontational. Folks like this are really hard to work with. They're also really easy to dislike.

I found this interesting:

> I wrote an impassioned piece talking about how this feature closed a security gap that had directly affected and provided an abuse vector against me

I see this "impassioned piece" as a public shaming of the company who employs her. Since her team's product manager encouraged her to write this, it makes the product manager look like a fool.

She probably caused a lot of friction among several of her co-workers and her manager just couldn't help her anymore.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#546

Post by breeny592 » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 7:15 AM UTC

s73ver wrote: post #91

vdnkh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was also the line that stuck out to me. I've had some personal experiences with coworkers in my recent career that has turned me on to issues of harassment in the workplace; I understood the issues before, but it wasn't until it affected someone close did I actually care. As I've been more involved I've seen how fast those active in making workplaces safer/more inclusive outpace those who merely empathize and un…

But... she didn’t. She pointed out that the question was a bad one, and that the question itself (not the writer of the question, just the question) was transphobic. Further, she provided the straightforward, no none sense feedback that most people here advocate for, especially when the issues of someone like Linus’ gruffness and straight up meanness comes up. Here we have a story of someone doing just that, without…

It's bit different if you work with them (or in the same company). Linus has a certain, style, to put it nicely, but in the broader open source community.

The key point is that this is likely the first time these two individuals had communicated - she effectively introduced herself to this person by saying "you are wrong", or "your work is incorrect". This isn't a professional way in a business to talk to someone. Even a simple greeting and explanation to say "I have some experience in this area, and here's some suggestions that would improve it" is infinitely better than the framing she gives: > I was very disappointed at this 101 mistake > sadly opened an issue referencing the question The emotions portrayed there give a good indication to the tone that the writing likely gave - instead of being constructive it could easily be perceived as hostile.

Yes, I think the data scientist over reacted. But I don't think her tone or approach was at all appropriate either.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#547

Post by ThrustVectoring » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 7:23 AM UTC

csdreamer7 wrote: post #454

nojvek wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why so much sugarcoating? Feedback was straightforward. I didn't see any aggressive words. Most of out PRs are to the point. Sometimes the big problem I find is that in some companies people are just scared of each other that they fail to communicate. Best places where I worked: people were to the point, they had healthy debates even with strong opinions.

> Why so much sugarcoating? Feedback was straightforward. I didn't see any aggressive words. I disagree; mostly because of this last part. > you need to explicitly ask that question. This last part feels like a demand and is too forceful. Suggestion is more persuasive then demands. I agree with you the comment you replied too is a little too sugarcoated for my taste, but the basic structure seems good, suggesting an…

It didn't seem like an overreaction from the data scientist. The subtext of the comment was that the scientist is considered an enemy of the trans political block. This is a serious problem that you will get burned by if you don't recruit allies to help you with it.

Like, the statement wasn't an opening for dialogue about or investigation into the best way to fulfill the work project. It went straight into making a power play. You can't discuss your way out of someone who's trying to control and gain power over you.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#548

Post by nunobrito » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 7:58 AM UTC

jdorfman wrote: post #354

nunobrito wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately one of my little brothers is bipolar and will soon turn 27 years old. It is awful, I love him so much and yet we are unable to help him more. If nobody in our family is there to talk with him immediately when he demands, then something drastic happens such as burning parts of his body (e.g. nipples) or anything that forces our attention to focus on him. Every week is a struggle, he dreams on becoming a…

I was diagnosed with Bipolar 1 disorder 14 years ago. I take my meds everyday, go to therapy and stay sober. If you ask anyone I work/worked with they will tell you I have it together and my career thus far has exceeded my (and others) expectations. I'm sorry your brother is going through hell right now, trust me I have been there. I know the burden it can put on friends and family, but you really shouldn't lump all…

Thank you for sharing. I'm happy to see an example that is possible to get back on your feet.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#549

Post by readittwice » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 9:35 AM UTC

eddieroger wrote: post #462

readittwice wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being in a mentor role does not mean you have to right to mentor. Exactly. For what we know, the junior could have actively complained to the manager (wrongly or rightly) about her mentoring. OTOH the junior dev might have appreciated it. We can't say for sure. Some people (myself included) prefer to get a general direction and then later to come back for further questions. Too much information in a short amount of…

> Some people (myself included) prefer to get a general direction and then later to come back for further questions. Too much information in a short amount of time can be overwhelming, I need some time to absorb and read it up in the internet. A few keywords might be good enough to get someone going and figure it out themselves. I'm in a senior role on my team, and this is exactly how I'd describe the support I try t…

You are absolutely right.

What makes me a bit skeptical here is that Coraline just writes 'this teammate seemed to be benefiting from it'. But doesn't mention that the junior dev appreciated it or thanked her for her help. Didn't the junior complain about the missing mentoring after the intervention of the manager?

But who knows, probably I am reading way too much into these few sentences...

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#550

Post by intellix » Fri, Jul 07, 2017, 10:28 AM UTC

Why can't we just remove the gender field and give people a key/value metadata field for people to identify whatever the hell they want to, be it gay, straight, white, black, paedophile, bestiality enthusiast. I imagine the point of the gender column is to try and identify patterns which can be achieved with key/value. It should satisfy these people who feel the need to have to identify themselves in all ways possible.