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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#541

Post by 1812calif »

jacalata wrote: post #151
solatic wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting rid of street parking hurts people with handicapped permits. In Israel, if you are eligible for a handicapped permit then you can get a street parking space in front of your apartment building reserved for your car (with signage saying that if the car parked there doesn't specifically have license plate number X then it will be towed). Telling these people to go a few blocks to an underground parking garage,…

Well in America that doesn't exist, so street parking must not affect disabled people on America. Or maybe "street parking" is too vague a term.

I live in California. My neighbors are disabled and got blue curb for handicap in front of their place when they moved in.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#542

Post by djsumdog »

adrianratnapala wrote: post #394
aexaey wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Dutch view this two ways to use bicycle very differently. There are even completely different verbs to describe that: - fietsen i.e. literally "bicycling" would refer to riding an opafiets [1] bicycle, at moderate speed, without helmet or any sort of cycling attire; - wielrennen , i.e. literally "wheel running" instead describes sort of cycling that you would see in Tour de France race - racing bike, helmet,…

While I get the difference, I can't quite imagine how it works in practice. Here in Germany, it's all radeln , and when I commute along the ordinary bike lanes, I usually go as fast as I can, which is something like 20-30km/hour. That's nothing like racing, but it not moderate and so I am overtaking more casual cyclists all the time. As far as I know, people who ride like me or faster are not frowned upon here. We ar…

The cycles I've seen in Germany are pretty similar to the same style as the rest of the western world: typically flat bars or drop bars with somewhere between 3 and 15 gears. So a huge variety, everything from commuter to cruisers to speed to hybrids.

In the Netherlands, it's rare to find speed or even higher end street bikes parked in any of the massive bike stands. They're all mostly old-school cruisers (what some people might call scooners). They don't go very fast and it's not uncommon to see a 2nd person just sitting on the back cargo mount.

Also, I find it interesting Germans have the same word for drive and ride. That's one of those common language mistakes you'll hear Germans make when they say, "I drove the bus."

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#543

Post by veddox »

Wow, that's the first time I've seen 500+ comments on an HN thread about cycling!

As to the "Dutch" grip: when I did driving school in Germany some years back, my teacher took great pains to impress on me to always look back before opening a door. In fact, not doing so can cause you to fail your driving test. As having to retake your driving test here can easily set you back several hundred euros, I learnt quickly...

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#544

Post by plainOldText »

nbouscal wrote: post #426
jerf wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you make a long list like that, the human intuitive norm is to start by assigning a roughly equal responsibility for each of them. However, it is rare to encounter a situation where some effect is obtained by 10 distinct factors all providing an equal contribution. (Think about it from an entropic point of view; that is one very specific configuration of contributions, vs. all the others in which they are not ba…

I upvoted you for the useful perspective, but wanted to point out that smartbit was almost certainly just sharing information that most readers are unlikely to have, rather than implicitly insisting anything. I don't think your tone in the third paragraph is very reasonable or charitable in response to their comment.

I believe evaluating the tone of a comment surely is a highly subjective undertaking; although most people could probably agree when they encounter a very mean or rude comment.

I personally don't think he had any obligation to be charitable in his response, yet he actually has been charitable, in the sense that he provided a different viewpoint; charitable to the group that is.

I know most people try to be sensible in their dialogs with other people, but I think we should strike a balance between accommodating everyone's feelings and actually telling it like it is. Now finding that balance is as much art as it is science.

And because human communication is so contextual, subjective and imprecise, I'm sure multiple individuals will internalize my comment differently. Given these, sometimes I'm surprised we can all get together. (:

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#545

Post by dpark »

developer2 wrote: post #533
dpark wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is far more believable than the claim that using the far hand will force you to turn 90 degrees inside the car and scan fully before getting out. It might serve as a good habit/reminder, but it's neither necessary nor sufficient to create this behavior. I think much of the US is unaware of how seriously some other countries take driver's training. Our standards are appallingly low.

Is it that hard to believe? The human brain is not a perfect system. We operate on autopilot when performing menial tasks. Exiting a car is absolutely a zero-effort task that is habitually performed without any thought involved. Reaching with the opposite hand naturally turns your head far enough that you're looking at your blind spot - or at least 80% of the head turn required. The point is you can consciously forge…

> Reaching with the opposite hand naturally turns your head far enough that you're looking at your blind spot - or at least 80% of the head turn required.

Only if you have so little shoulder mobility that you're unable to move your arm across your body while retaining your upper body position. I can reach across my body to open the door with no upper body movement. If I reach casually and let my body move loosely, I maybe move 10 or 15 degrees.

You might be thinking, "Oh, you're just saying that because it's a motion you're not used to and as a result you're overthinking it and holding yourself unnaturally still." But it's not an uncommon or unnatural motion for me. I already do this literally every time I open the car door. I always open the door with my right (far) hand because I don't have a left hand. And I don't automatically turn 90 degrees when I open the door, or 80 degrees, or even 45 degrees.

I'm not opposed to some "mnemonics" like this. I am opposed to treating them like they fix the core issues. It's really appealing to pick some tiny factor like this and say "here's the thing we're missing", but the thing we're missing is the careful culture that the Dutch have around driving. Opening the door with your right hand won't end dooring in the US any more than drinking red wine like the French will cure heart disease. We diminish the conversation when we push easy changes as silver bullets.

> Time and time again on Hacker News, intelligent people can't seem to understand that the average citizen is not a Hacker News visitor.

This is out of place and pointless.

> You can try to rationalize that every driver must be capable of being consciously aware of what they are doing every single time they open their car door. You can believe that this behaviour should be testable and that we should revoke licenses from the 20-70% of drivers who would fail such a test.

I definitely didn't say anything remotely like that.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#546

Post by walshemj »

hx87 wrote: post #527
elif wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about until such a time that society can provide a safe means of cycling, we let cyclists decide how they are most capable of staying alive. Riding a slow bicycle and stopping at every intersection is incredibly unsafe in many American cities. Yeah, a fixed gear can be an encumberence to a poser, but to someone qualified, it can also be a means of greater control.

> Riding a slow bicycle and stopping at every intersection is incredibly unsafe in many American cities. I don't think blowing through red lights at or near full speed is any safer. Come on, at least do a California roll.

Certainty in London at any busy junction you can see fixies blasting trough red lights at +25/30 MPH with no regard for pedestrins

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#547

Post by rconti »

lukaslalinsky wrote: post #158

I'm honestly surprised this is such a common problem in the US. Most of the parallel parking spaces here are next to the road, so if you open your door without looking, some other car will crash into you. We have been trained since we were children to always look when exiting a car parked on a street. We were not even allowed to exit from the road side of the car most of the time. As a driver, you have to be super ca…

Yeah, American here, I can't fathom opening my door when parked along the street without watching my side mirror as I do so.

Sure, there's "enough room" on most streets to not have my door ripped off, but it seems a little silly to trust it so fully. That's sorta like saying you should just pin the throttle when the light turns green, as the other cars have a red light anyway, so it's unlikely that you will collide with anyone.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#548

Post by carapace »

pja wrote: post #489
ekidd wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wear a helmet for bicycling, in-line skating, snowboarding and whitewater kayaking. In the case of the first three sports, the helmet has saved me from nasty head hits: - Two over-the-handlebars crashes on my bike at relatively low speed (one when mountain biking). - A low tree limb and several backwards falls when inline skating. - Countless backwards falls when learning to snowboard. For whitewater kayaking, a he…

So, according to your risk profile, it sounds like you should be wearing a helmet when driving a car. (This is actually something that the safety researchers advocate for if you go read the literature.)

That's a "fun fact": it makes complete and total sense to wear helmets while driving.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#549

Post by adrianratnapala »

djsumdog wrote: post #542
adrianratnapala wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I get the difference, I can't quite imagine how it works in practice. Here in Germany, it's all radeln , and when I commute along the ordinary bike lanes, I usually go as fast as I can, which is something like 20-30km/hour. That's nothing like racing, but it not moderate and so I am overtaking more casual cyclists all the time. As far as I know, people who ride like me or faster are not frowned upon here. We ar…

The cycles I've seen in Germany are pretty similar to the same style as the rest of the western world: typically flat bars or drop bars with somewhere between 3 and 15 gears. So a huge variety, everything from commuter to cruisers to speed to hybrids. In the Netherlands, it's rare to find speed or even higher end street bikes parked in any of the massive bike stands. They're all mostly old-school cruisers (what some…

I had no idea the NL cycling culture was like that. The only cycling dutchman I know is a speed deamon -- but he lived in England then.

Also, yes the word fahren is a bit strange to my English-trained years. But if it lumps "drive" and "ride" together, it also make a distinction that isn't available in English: it is to travel on a vehicle (be it just a pair of roller skates), but not on your own power or on the back of an animal.

That might sound like a weird distinction to make, until you realise that fahren is the absolute favourite activity of the German race. That's why they are so keen on trains and bikes and why they invented motor cars, jet engines, freeways and (I suspect) the parent-powered sleigh.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#550

Post by hondo77 »

stephenr wrote: post #215

I'm not quite sure I understand. Do Americans not look at what's coming from behind them before opening a slab of metal and glass a meter out the side of their cars? Kind of reminds me of when I first moved to Thailand. My (now) mother-in-law asked her daughter why I kept looking over my shoulder when driving her car, and why/if I couldn't use the side mirrors. She had literally never heard of nor understood the conc…

American bike and car commuter here. Americans are not the greatest and checking mirrors before opening their doors. I wouldn't say all don't check but I'd estimate a slight majority do check.
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