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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#531

Post by chris_wot »

general_failure wrote: post #463
thomasmeeks wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given her (and the two other) accounts, this absolutely was sexual battery. A drunk, intimidated, or otherwise incapacitated victim does not give an attacker free reign to do whatever they feel like doing. Drunkenness on the attacker's part is not a defense. If you start touching someone like this, it is not their job to stop you. It is your job to be, beyond a shadow of a doubt, positive that the touch is welcomed.…

If this is indeed the law, its scary. I for one take some Time to realize that someone is not into it. In fact I always put in extra effort to put someone in the mood if they are feeling frigid. I thought this is normal male behavior - a little bit of persistence. I see this in movies all the time. Maybe we need to mark most of the american movies as R.

I strongly urge you to reconsider what you are doing! Not only are you putting yourself at risk of a rape claim, but you really could assault someone. What he says is true. It is the law - the onus is on the party who initiates the activity to gain clear consent.

If that involves specifically asking, then so be it.

I see you've been downvoted to oblivion, which I hope gives you some idea as to how dangerous what you are saying is and how dimly most people are viewing it.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#532

Post by Dalkore »

gregd wrote: post #382
pearjuice wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So any contact by a man on woman which has not explicitly said "Yes, I am okay with this" is sexual assault? Rape? Shouldn't the victim have responsibilities? Know what is at stake?

I'll oblige you with a response. This wasn't just "any contact". Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? Did you read where he groped her ass? Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? Quit trying to frame this as just "any contact" because it wasn't.

Why did she not pull away after the kiss and be done with it. It takes some time to kiss someone, reach around grab their butt then go down the pants which were likely tight fitting jeans. Just time it yourself and ask yourself if there is enough time for someone to pull away. I am not sure how you "jam" you tongue down someones throat and not have them pull away if they did not want that from you. Check your emotions for a second and read through and document all the facts and weigh them before you start making judgements.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#533

Post by klepra »

general_failure wrote: post #503
steveklabnik wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent to a body shot is consent to a body shot. Let's not even bring up the coercive aspect here. Consent to a body shot is not consent to sex afterward.

huh ? They didn't have sex. Did you read the article or do you know something we don't.

So, forced kiss and fingering in public is no big deal, huh?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#534

Post by Dalkore »

makomk wrote: post #352
pearjuice wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't there and can't speak of how Justine was lying on the bar (whether she was enjoying that moment) but I can read: >Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers) So this is not uncommon. She was OK at this point. She occasionally let men kis…

The parts you missed? Hmmm, how about the part where it would have been rather obvious to him that his advances were unwanted right around the part he tried to kiss her with tongue if not earlier. What about the part where it's rather difficult to get off a bar when you're drunk and there's a guy leaning over you. Then there's the part where women are under social pressure not to kick up a big fuss about this kind of…

Can someone tell me how you put your hand down to grab someone's butt while they are laying on their back on a bar? That seems kind of difficult. I just tried it and it took me rolling someone on their side then doing it and then rolling them back to put my hand down their pants. I am just recounting the information presented to fairly run through this situation. We need to be fair to both parties if were are going to be passing judgement on people we don't know and were not at this event. We are only hearing one side of the story so that means we need to scrutinize it even more.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#535

Post by Dalkore »

kristofferR wrote: post #414
ryanbrunner wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could maybe accept this argument if he tried to advance things, and stopped when it was clear she wasn't reciprocating. There's a sexual element to a body shot, and there's really no use denying that fact. But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate, and certainly when someone tells you to stop, you've clearly crossed a line. In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point sh…

Her post is light on details, so it's hard to decipher how Joe perceived the situation. > But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate... It's likely that he didn't notice her not reciprocating the kiss. He might also have though she was just a bit shy or simply a bad kisser. > In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop". Agreed, no doubt about it. However, t…

Exactly, I does not look to be a vile act but still a bad decision on Joe's part. If someone said no by referencing wife and kids, that would "imply" they actual would do it but that have a moral objection to the person's relationship status. NO MEANS NO when you say NO or STOP. Many of you are being self-righteous by vilifying this person and then when anyone brings up reasonable doubt, you attack the person or worse then addressing reasonable questions like why didn't she just walk away or clearly say STOP or NO. Instead I see people absolving Justine from any PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for her ACTIONS or LACK THEREOF.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#536

Post by chris_wot »

general_failure wrote: post #473
wilkie wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, pretty much every point in this is victim blaming.

Huh? How did you conclude she is a victims from that blogpost? This is what I call naïve. People will believe anything and everything in blogs.

How did you not conclude she was a victim from that blog, and the two corroborating logs?!?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#537

Post by chris_wot »

general_failure wrote: post #475
britta wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be really hard, almost impossibly hard, to make decisions when you're suddenly confronted with a situation that breaks your understanding of a person you trust (especially a person who has power over you, and especially a situation that seriously violates social norms) - at that moment, you're intensely confused, with a big "WTF" blaring in your head, your brain is flooding with panic and adrenaline...it's not…

I don't get the body shots with people you trust part. What sort of girls do these? Honest question. In my culture we call such girls sluts.

From what sort of fucked up society do you come from?!

Re: Because it needs to be said

#538

Post by Dalkore »

untog wrote: post #440
pearjuice wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

You're forgetting that they pressured her to do it. So, socially pressure someone into doing something sexually submissive = she's fair game to go further? Yeah. That's sick.

She should of just gotten up from the bar. From how the story reads, I don't think she was laying down at that point so she had the opportunity to walk away. 4 separate acts happened and by her account 3 were unwanted. How many does it take for someone to just remove themselves from the situation? How many?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#539

Post by chris_wot »

general_failure wrote: post #523
steveklabnik wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes. The situation described falls within the definition of sexual assault in the United States, at least. I am not a lawyer. Decide for yourself: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.03

By your definition, there's countless rapes in movies. Can we change the hollywood movies from here on to always ask 'may i have sex with you?' before they start making out? If they don't ask, I want these movies to be rated R since they are showing rape and possibly sexual assault.

Yeah, that's right. Comparing Hollywood to actions in real life. Very helpful.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#540

Post by Dalkore »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #220
hrvbr wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, my first impression is that she's very fragile and passive. "Assault" is a too strong word if the guy let her go when she left for a smoke. And why didn't she punch the aggressor? Friends can be punched too. Saying "no" isn't enough to claim she resisted. If someone uses his physical force against us, we're not supposed to just say "please stop" as if the guy were respectful enough to obey. And she went back to…

> And why didn't she punch the aggressor? She was in shock. > Saying "no" isn't enough to claim she resisted. Why does it matter if she resisted? Is it not rape if you don't resist?

Regardless of shock or not, it was her responsibility to pull away and not let it go any further. Maybe she was really drunk and it didn't hit her that this was happening. Yes unwanted sexual contact happened but to make her as a pure victim is passing judgement on Joe with even asking him his side or any of the witnesses. Yes bad things happened but it is not this clear cut and one-sided. Sorry to break it to you.
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