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GTA 6 Developers Unionize

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Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#531

Post by ranguna »

amazingamazing wrote: post #67
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese auto workers have been unionized since the 60s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automob... In fact part of the SCAP mandates after World War II two during the MacArthur occupation was specifically to form powerful unions in Japan

Interesting - but seems like Toyota in particular had their cars produced by non unionized group producing workers at least for some period: https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-t... Seems hard to compare since there is no comparison in Japan that is not unionized But given that China is now winning my original point stands

Your point turned from "here are some examples" to "here's a sample of one". And that "one" is so different, society wise, from all the other ones that I'm not sure is useful here other that "if you live in a society like this that's just starting to massively produce world wide in this sector other than a brand or two they were doing before, then maybe there can be no union workers compared to the other companies that have been producing world wide for decades across multiple models and brands"

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#532

Post by ranguna »

matchbok3 wrote: post #204
Apocryphon wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s a matter of proof, these are all links already posted on this site: https://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/union-effect-in-california-... https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-decline-inequality-ri... https://werd.io/unions-work/ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-13/unions... https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/19/20727283/u...

Do you think Vox has ever written about how transit unions increase costs by mandating redundant workers and work against technology that could automate trains? Do you think Box has ever written about how Detroit unions fought EVs and AVs and automation that could result in cheaper cars? Why do you think that is?

Like a wise person once said: That is an entirely different argument that's not particularly germane to this topic.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#533

Post by ranguna »

matchbok3 wrote: post #124
ionwake wrote: post #101

Isnt management at Rockstar the same poeple who: A) Allowed a bug in the code make all GTA5 Load times on every single copy on every platform take exponential times longer to load, for YEARS, unchecked or investigated, until some random kid FIXED IT by reverse engineering compiled code? B) The bug was a simple and unneeded look up for SHOP items C) The never rewarded the kid, with say a job or something worthwhile fo…

If this "management" is so incompetent and ineffective, the workers shouldn't need them, right? They should just start their own company. Didn't think so. This simplistic view of "management" is detrimental to a productive conversation and doesn't reflect reality.

I don't think it's the need for management that makes devs not start a new company, it's the huge amount of money and connections needed. You don't need someone managing you to get connections and money, you just need the connections and the money.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#534

Post by flohofwoe »

UK-Al05 wrote: post #190
flohofwoe wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern AAA video game development has much more in common with a traditional factory assembly line than a typical tech startup (for better or worse) - or maybe movie production is an even better comparison (especially now where most of the production seems to happen 'in post'). Also VC doesn't seem to be all that interested in investing into game dev companies, I guess because it's such an extreme hit-and-miss busine…

Game VC is called being a publisher.

Hardly comparable IMHO, entirely different goals and scale.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#535

Post by javier123454321 »

abhaynayar wrote: post #376
javier123454321 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually quite a common occurrence in the arts and other creative fields, where there is a level of idealization for the work in itself outside of the remuneration. Musicians, architects, illustrators, cinematographers are all dealing with the same thing the more the work resembles their ideal type of artistic work, the less to pay usually.

Reminds me of this [1] article, quoting Seinfeld, "In the seventies, this is the tragic turn of American culture. And this was explained to me by Mario Joiner who cracked this puzzle that I could not figure out what the hell happened. That money became everything. What happened because it was not like that in the seventies. In the seventies, it’s how cool is your job? How cool is what you’re doing? If your job’s cool…

Yeah im not saying it's a bad thing necessarily.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#536

Post by mike_hearn »

sonzohan wrote: post #522
mike_hearn wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling your students misogynists is a shamefully harsh attack on them without any evidence to back it up. That feedback is exactly what a male teacher would get if he had the same career history as you. You say in a post below that your total games industry experience was a single internship at Blizzard and then a second stint where you "quickly realized" you didn't want to be a games dev at all, and went back into…

> You say in a post below that your total games industry experience was a single internship at Blizzard and then a second stint where you "quickly realized" you didn't want to be a games dev at all That is not my entire games experience. I have 15 years total, spanning Game Master, lead gameplay engineer, game engineering director, and CTO. I was asked my route to academia, not my entire Gaming Industry CV. > they're…

Yes, I've never seen any misogyny in tech, if anything it's the other way around where men are told there are too many of them and their employer would prefer more women. But my criticism of your post isn't related to you being a woman, it's to do with you immediately leaping to the worst possible interpretation of your student feedback. Why assume bad faith immediately? Where's the evidence to support that? Do you just assume any negative feedback always has a hidden agenda?

Look - you say you have made games, and that your students have all played games where they could find your name in the credits. You also get feedback that your students don't believe you. This is a weird problem to have and should be trivial to fix if true. Just... boot up the games and show them where you're credited as the lead gameplay engineer? What do they say when you do that?

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#537

Post by keybored »

matchbok3 wrote: post #96
keybored wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-unionists are here to tell us that consumers might possibly suffer. Higher prices and delays on a video game. Which has not seen a release in this series in half this century so far. For all this consumer cares, great. Make it 20% more expensive. Make it 50% more expensive. A hundred. If that helps the greater union cause I can take more walks in the woods to pass the time instead.

What a luxury you have to spend so much money on things, then. Hint: most people don't live that way.

Most people haven’t had the luxury of playing a new GTA game in 13 years either. Jesus Christ, I need to spell out that it’s a video game and not some life necessity? The usual anti-union scaremongering is about families being delayed for their vacations because airport workers want rights, but this is even more optional.

I don’t buy the premise of workers ruining the lives of consumers; I think the real problem is them ruining the relative profits of shareholders.[1] But F me, I’m not gonna buy this privilege checking over a crime sandbox video game.

[1] This user in another subthread[2] is complaining that people are antagonistic against management. Of course, whatever is most expedient for anti-unionism, everything from woe-is-poor-person to you-need-management-you-peons.

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48326490

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#538

Post by adinisom »

sonzohan wrote: post #258
RobRivera wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was your route to teaching like? I kinda am considering putting my hat in a similar ring on a part time, evening class type basis if I can get away with it.

I graduated in 2011, went straight to work at Blizzard entertainment. At the same time I had gotten accepted into graduate school so I opted for an internship at Blizzard to try both. I went back to Blizzard in 2012, but quickly realized I wanted to do my PhD. So I left Blizzard and went full-time as a student. I didn't have funding so I TAd classes. Eventually my advisor and I scored a big NSF grant, so she used the…

Great seeing where Speech with Sam and, more generally, you ended up.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#539

Post by ETH_start »

jachee wrote: post #307
jayceedenton wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you end crunch? Teams always work at a more relaxed pace when the deadlines are years out. You can't beat Parkinson's law no matter how generous you are with the estimates. We've all tried methodologies to counter this problem and create a continuous, sustainable pace. Unfortunately there's something deep in human nature that prevents us spreading that effort out evenly from day one.

Easy: No one should do unpaid labor. Period. “Crunch time” has traditionally been deployed by games management as a license to free slave labor from game developers. Failures of management’s planning are imposed as emergencies on the devs.

Employees are idle during a lot of company time too. There's give and take on both sides.

Re: GTA 6 Developers Unionize

#540

Post by bananaboy »

dijit wrote: post #496
bananaboy wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more nuanced than that. Programmers generally will be paid decently. Gameplay programmers aren’t really the bottom of the pecking order. That dubious honour usually falls to UI engineers. Other folks involved in development who often don’t get paid well and are usually involved in unions are QA, junior programmers, and junior artists. There are a lot more roles than just engine and gameplay programmer.

Artists in my experience earn a lot less than programmers in gamdev; unless you're a technical artist... which is another type of programming.

Very true!
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