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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#531

Post by clircle »

runeks wrote: post #514
regexorcist wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

> That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. I'm considering going this way on my M1 MBP. Is there anything you miss wrt. hardware compatibility?

Pro motion and battery life for me

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#532

Post by dsr_ »

itake wrote: post #500
kelnos wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that maybe you've just gotten lucky? Laptop components do break. I haven't had Mac laptops in a bunch of years, but just off the top of my head I've had a keyboard key break (MacBook Air), and a mainboard die (MacBook Pro). But if you don't need repairs, you might want upgrades. I have a Framework 13 from 2022 and I expect I won't be buying a full new laptop for many many years. It's great that you've been a…

I'm in the same category as dbg31415. I've owned mbps since 2007. Never had any serious issues with them. I kept them for about 4 years each, before upgrading. My 2021 m1 has at least another year left in it. Certainly if you're in the 0.01% of Apple purchasers that just have a terrible experience (broken device, out of warranty, etc) and one of your largest purchases doesn't work the way you want it, then that is te…

The 0.01% number is a ridiculous exaggeration.

In a roughly 50 person company with refresh every 3 years, we send a macbook back for repair/replacement roughly three times a year. I would estimate that as a 2% hardware problem rate, 200x higher than what you quote.

2% is satisfactory for corporate use, by the way.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#533

Post by wiether »

ramijames wrote: post #399
cardanome wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is all true but even as a hardcore Linux and Thinkpad user, I have to admit it is a hard sell when no one can offer the quality of Apple. Apple is the only hardware company where you can buy a product and it is good hardware wise. Sure other companies have flagship offerings but with apple you get a really good base model. And that is where it breaks down for me. Pay 20% more for freedom? Yes, absolutely. But pa…

I think that people aren't seeing what Apple is doing through the lens of efficiency, and the wider impact that has on their software and hardware. Them not having to support 30+ year old software means that they can be more nimble and make better hardware choices. Look at the mess that Microsoft has made for itself by setting the requirement that software made in the 90s must still run on modern OSs and hardware. It…

> Look at the mess that Microsoft has made for itself by setting the requirement that software made in the 90s must still run on modern OSs and hardware. It's bonkers and is slowly killing the company.

Forcing people to create a MS account to log in their Windows computer, that's because of backward compatibility?

Pushing Copilot absolutely everywhere, that's because of backward compatibility?

GitHub being down almost daily, that's because of backward compatibility?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#535

Post by actionfromafar »

itake wrote: post #502
rbanffy wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole selling point of the Framework is easy upgrades, thanks to modularity. It is a laptop that’s designed to be your laptop for at least two or three upgrade cycles, which, for Apple, implies a new laptop.

Apple's upgrade cycle (for me) has moved from 4 years to ~6 years. Maybe upgrading the RAM or HD could be useful, but wear and tear on all components is a bigger concern for me than just one. My laptop is a critical part of my life. I can't risk being out of service for a week while parts arrive. Its like buying a car... you can repair and maintain it to 200k miles, but the reliability will go down as more things bre…

Off topic but I think many models of cars, when properly maintained, have very predictable and good reliability.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#536

Post by cmrdporcupine »

benoau wrote: post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

Right, I mean, like Jeff's content but it sort of felt like he was metaphorically "punching down" in this video.

Of course Apple can make a relatively cheap mass produced device that can outcompete on price / spec -- they've been making iPads for almost two decades now. They just threw a keyboard on one and changed the bootloader to boot OSX. Good for them. 20 years of R&D paid off for one of the largest and most valued and profitable companies in the world.

If I want a relatively cheap machine I can actually run Linux (or for other people, Windows) on, or can upgrade or repair... Apple is not in the running.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#537

Post by regexorcist »

clircle wrote: post #531
runeks wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. I'm considering going this way on my M1 MBP. Is there anything you miss wrt. hardware compatibility?

Pro motion and battery life for me

Pro motion has been working for a while, you can get 120Hz now.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#538

Post by andybp85 »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #530
simonsan wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

> Until you need to repair something or change some hardware How often does this happen, though? I have a 2013 MBP that still works perfectly. And I'm not even talking about the screen, which is ridiculously better than most new pc laptops. And then, of course, there's the touchpad, which, for some reason, is still unmatched in pc land. It has 512 GB of SSD and 16 of RAM. This is basically what the new "upgraded" PCs…

in my day job doing enterprise web apps at a mac shop 16G became unusable for the engineers 3-5 yeas ago. i managed to weasel into them getting me a 64G M1 Pro in 2022 (now they won't buy us any higher than 32G). i'll probably still be using this thing in six years!

to be fair, given the choice between a decade-old macbook and basically any current windows box with same specs, i'd take the macbook every time. but, if i could put linux on it...

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#539

Post by sfjailbird »

whimblepop wrote: post #83

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

It's funny how Apple has come full circle. Back in the 90s, when they were in deep crisis (before the second coming of Jobs), it was almost conventional wisdom that they should just stop selling hardware, and focus on their superior software. And here we are today when a lot of people lust for the hardware, but just can't deal with MacOS.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#540

Post by dbgobrrr »

I regularly follow Jeff Geerling's blog and I value his opinion (usually), and I understand his points - he does make very good points in this article. However, the conclusion really irked me:

> As I mention in my video, the Framework 12 isn't a bad laptop, it's just a bad value, especially in comparison to the Neo.

Saying it is bad *value* is off the mark completely. There is, unless you are willing to use MacOS (which is a knock-out criteria for me: I love Apple hardware, but I cannot stand the OS and its artificial restrictions it imposes on the user).

I own a FW12 and for me the main driver was a light laptop with good battery life[1], that I can install my own Linux on it, and the drivers all work from day one on a new laptop. The last bit is not taken for granted, I have been bitten many times by this (as I'm sure many of you did). On top of that, I decided I will not have any more android devices if I can choose otherwise[2] - and the FW12 is a good tablet replacement. It's great to watch videos with (tent mode).

So for me, personally, it is great value, and the Neo would just become a secondary device I would very rarely use. Low utility means for me low value, YMMV.

[1] The battery itself is great. I get real 10-12 hours of work on it regularly! But obviously intel CPU cannot rival Apple on power consumption, as you can see in the benchmarks in the article. [2] Android or iPhone are unfortunately a requirement for modern life. That's just so sad and I wish it would be legislated that apps that are needed (banking, civil services, etc.) *must* work on an alternate OS without the user hostility (I'd mention here: https://keepandroidopen.org/)

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