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Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

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Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#531

Post by skydhash »

Gareth321 wrote: post #509
trashface wrote: post #109

Feels like there is some real momentum on linux gaming now. I mostly play older games but I've gotten most of them working acceptably in proton on my old system 76 laptop (oryp5, with a nvidia 2060; ~7 years old). The laptop actually has plenty of power for the games I play, but I underclock to keep the heat/fan speeds down (been doing the same on the win10 install on the same system), still getting acceptable framer…

I think Linux needs a few things before it will be ready for mass consumer adoption. 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Cheating really sucks. It ruins online games. Kernel level anti-cheats aren't perfect, but they're much better than user-space or server-side anti-cheats. Maybe in the future AI solves this, but inherence-based anti-cheats are likely going to be a cat-and-mouse game. Valve have stated the…

> 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats.

Ultimately, you can’t trust the user computer unless you go for the secure boot things backed by a hardware key. I’m sure there are multiple ways to bypass anti-cheats on Windows.

> 2. Immutability[…] It's distributing games to 12 different distros with a hundreds different configurations and a thousand customisations

Does it really matter? You can always ship a statically compiled games. There’s only one kernel that is greatly back compatible.

> 3. An enforced equivalent of .exe.

I think ELF is the official standard for executable binary. The competition is illusory. There’s nothing preventing anyone from distributing a self extracting archive that installs on /opt. Packaging on Linux is about your system consistency, not software availability.

> 4. Better hardware support

That’s not a linux issue. If the manufacturer is not keen on getting it in the kernel or making it open source, they can always create a binary blob and distribute some shim that loads it.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#532

Post by Gareth321 »

doikor wrote: post #466
Mariajaved906 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, anti-cheat support is probably the biggest barrier right now. The Steam Deck already showed that many gamers do not really care about the OS as long as their favorite games work smoothly.

Valve doesn’t do kernel level anti cheat on Windows either. Those are the actual roadblocks. Userland anti cheats can work (and do) on Linux if the developers want to. Most of the third party ones the developer buys/licenses already do. But reality is that only the kernel level ones seem to work to some extent. Difference in the amount cheating between counter strike and valorant is just massive (both free to play ga…

Yeah, user-space anti-cheats just aren't as effective. We need kernel-level anti-cheats on Linux, and more. I understand these are considered invasive, but people care FAR more about cheaters than they do the extremely remote possibility of a zero-day exploit.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#533

Post by nottorp »

stavros wrote: post #160
nottorp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's no regedit or control panel and other such things That's not a bug, it's a feature.

We weren't talking about whether the registry was better or worse, we were talking about how similar the two OSes were.

... in case of the registry, you were also talking about replacing a unix philosophy system (each application has its own standalone config file) with a windows like monolith (everything goes into the registry).

Tbh it's not even muscle memory, how often do you edit config files?

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#535

Post by SmirkingRevenge »

neverkn0wsb357 wrote: post #295

Given the current momentum, it feels like (to me) the adage of “Windows is for Games” is going by the wayside. If you look at Steam, and OSs like Bazzite it’s clear the consumer-side is finally shoring up. But that aside, from an economic incentive, game providers (for example Amazon Luna), don’t want to be paying the licenses for running Windows machines for Video Game Streaming on Demand. In fact, at my time there…

The progress is vast, but at the same time, it feels overstated.

Linux still is not a great daily driver for video games in many circumstances, unless you're on a specialized device like the steam deck that gets extra attention to smooth out the rough bits.

On my gaming PC I haven't found a single game that runs noticeably faster in Linux. Most run considerably worse often while suffering various glitches (sometimes game-breaking).

Sometimes, with work (different versions of proton, startup options, configs, or even new kernels or compositors, etc) you can get around those problems, but... it takes work. Work that you just don't have to do on Windows.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#536

Post by bcjdjsndon »

rowanG077 wrote: post #513
Gareth321 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Linux needs a few things before it will be ready for mass consumer adoption. 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Cheating really sucks. It ruins online games. Kernel level anti-cheats aren't perfect, but they're much better than user-space or server-side anti-cheats. Maybe in the future AI solves this, but inherence-based anti-cheats are likely going to be a cat-and-mouse game. Valve have stated the…

> 2. Immutability. Right now distributing games on Linux isn't distributing games "on Linux." It's distributing games to 12 different distros with a hundreds different configurations and a thousand customisations. This is impossible to support. When SteamOS gains traction, developers will be able to target exactly one distro with fixed configurations and limited customisations. Valve will set the standard for other d…

Did you not read what you quoted?

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#537

Post by shaokind »

kzrdude wrote: post #487
protocolture wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given the current momentum, it feels like (to me) the adage of “Windows is for Games” is going by the wayside. I think that games have been a strategic priority for Windows for a very long time. Going all the way back to DOS/4GW on Windows 95. But the impression I get from Microsoft is that they kind of don't want the hassle of maintaining a desktop OS anymore, and they would be happier if everyone went elsewhere.

I think that's the key explanation. Gamers are no longer a mass market user group for microsoft - they target all the casual computer users. Gamers actually want full control of their computer, pay attention to details and care about performance: that's a niche user base, and it's clear why their interests overlap with the linux community: user needs trump everything.

I don't know if I'd agree with the adage about gamers wanting full control. A subset of gamers, absolutely.

But this excludes the entire console population. This arguably excludes most Steam Deck customers, who picked it because Valve made the Linux experience seamless, so they don't have to pay attention to the details. This excludes many of the PC gamers I know, that do not care beyond whether their computer is capable of playing the games they want to. They won't even reformat their Windows to remove OEM bloat.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#539

Post by hootz »

kelseydh wrote: post #456
wtetzner wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You act like cheating is new to video games?? No, I think the point is that with AI the existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Therefore anti-cheat kernel modules will no longer be useful, and will no longer be a reason to stay on Windows.

Chess anti-cheat now relies on looking at your moves and spotting mistakes. Not even grandmasters play tactically perfect games so this works pretty well for finding cheaters. In theory FPS games could do the same to detect aimbotting.

I still don't understand why we aren't using server-side gameplay analysis for cheat detection. You can have some obvious inhuman-level gameplay heuristics for real time kicks/timeouts during matches and post-game analysis by AI to flag for review or outright automatically ban gameplay that deviates from normal high-level players.

Re: Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features

#540

Post by bcjdjsndon »

skydhash wrote: post #531
Gareth321 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Linux needs a few things before it will be ready for mass consumer adoption. 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Cheating really sucks. It ruins online games. Kernel level anti-cheats aren't perfect, but they're much better than user-space or server-side anti-cheats. Maybe in the future AI solves this, but inherence-based anti-cheats are likely going to be a cat-and-mouse game. Valve have stated the…

> 1. An equivalent of kernel level anti-cheats. Ultimately, you can’t trust the user computer unless you go for the secure boot things backed by a hardware key. I’m sure there are multiple ways to bypass anti-cheats on Windows. > 2. Immutability[…] It's distributing games to 12 different distros with a hundreds different configurations and a thousand customisations Does it really matter? You can always ship a statica…

2. Does it really matter? You can always ship a statically compiled games. There’s only one kernel that is greatly back compatible.

There's more to it than dependencies. It's a valid point.

> I think ELF is the official standard for executable binary. The competition is illusory. There’s nothing preventing anyone from distributing a self extracting archive that installs on /opt. Packaging on Linux is about your system consistency, not software availability.

I think he meant .MSI and not .exe, but the point remains and is still valid. Why are there multiple ways to skin the same cat?

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