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Waymo in Portland

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Re: Waymo in Portland

#531

Post by 93po »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #438
JuniperMesos wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road maintenance isn't a subsidy, it's a collective good that buses also benefit from along with many other types of human transport. This is separate from the cost to the government of running a bus system, which is exactly what large numbers of people really don't want to pay an additonal tax for and are therefore voting against.

If you only wanted to run buses, you would not build nearly as many roads as we do.

However, busses do tremendously greater wear and damage to roads than cars, and if everyone used busses exclusively the cost of road maintenance and repair would likely go up.

I'd also argue we'd need the same amount of roads, but those roads (mostly highways) could be smaller/fewer lanes.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#532

Post by UltraSane »

qwerpy wrote: post #530
UltraSane wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are basically the car Homer designed in that famous episode of The Simpsons. They are the ugliest and and most impractical car ever designed. The fact that the bed cover blocks the rear view window should be illegal. Dozens of people must have told Elon how stupid using stainless steel for the body is but he ignored them all. The cabin looks incredibly cheap for an $80,000 car. It is a very bad truck. I do have…

None of the subjective things you said has any bearing on my lived experience of the past two years I’ve owned it. It off roads well. Holds lots of stuff. Backed up my whole house when we had a power outage. Safest truck ever tested. Drives itself. Looks awesome.

How many times have you been flipped off while driving it? And buying one after Elon lost his mind and did a nazi salute TWICE is pretty gross.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#533

Post by waffletower »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #428
xnx wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Waymo get subsidies? If I ride in Waymo, does that mean I get subsidies?

> by simple virtue of being a car State and local governments spend a truly obscene amount of money building and repairing roads, and set aside a nauseating amount of publicly owned land to serve as roads, street parking, and parking lots. Those of us who don't frequently drive get some benefit from the roads, sure, because of the efficiencies of shops needing deliveries and whatnot, but not anything close to proport…

Bicycling also benefits from road maintenance. Portland does have some innovative bicycle-centered road infrastructure.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#534

Post by jaykru »

qwerpy wrote: post #530
UltraSane wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are basically the car Homer designed in that famous episode of The Simpsons. They are the ugliest and and most impractical car ever designed. The fact that the bed cover blocks the rear view window should be illegal. Dozens of people must have told Elon how stupid using stainless steel for the body is but he ignored them all. The cabin looks incredibly cheap for an $80,000 car. It is a very bad truck. I do have…

None of the subjective things you said has any bearing on my lived experience of the past two years I’ve owned it. It off roads well. Holds lots of stuff. Backed up my whole house when we had a power outage. Safest truck ever tested. Drives itself. Looks awesome.

It ~objectively doesn't off-road well or hold lots of stuff compared with other vehicles in its class. That said, unlike the meanie commenter I'm glad you like your vehicle and very jealous of the self-driving! :)

Re: Waymo in Portland

#535

Post by Ritewut »

n8cpdx wrote: post #442
Ritewut wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portlanders do not think this. Survey people in Portland and you'll find they want trains as well. NIMBYs don't and NIMBYs make up the majority of people who actually have the time and wealth to go to city meetings.

You can want trains while simultaneously detesting all of the conditions that make trains viable. Just like you can want to drive to work every day and also want to never be in traffic. NIMBYism has nothing to do with being averse to working downtown or tearing down a mall (a radically YIMBY position regarding dead malls).

I don't know many if any YIMBYs who are opposed to density. I know people who are opposed to density being seen as only apartments and condos.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#536

Post by HDThoreaun »

array_key_first wrote: post #286
ggreer wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2025, TriMet had 262 million passenger miles at a system cost of $812 million, for a cost of $3.09 per passenger mile.[1] Fares covered 7.8% of their costs. The other 92.2% came from payroll taxes and federal grants. For comparison, a Lyft or Uber in the same area would cost you $1-2 per mile. Obviously it's not feasible for all 200k daily riders to take Uber/Lyft, and the Uber/Lyft cost doesn't include externalit…

This is an implementation problem, not a problem with the underlying concept. Public transit like buses and lightrail are significantly more efficient per person than personal vehicles. This is because they can transport many more people for the same amount of space and energy. They also typically run on set tracks, which yields more efficiency gains. The US is really, really bad at doing public transit. It doesn't h…

Public transit is only efficient if people use it. If there’s only 1 person on the bus it is less efficient than a car.

Almost everyone drives so the government needs to pay for roads either way. Public transit on the other hand is easy to cut. What matters here is marginal costs of people using ride shares instead of public transit, not the full cost of driving that would need to be paid either way.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#537

Post by mmooss »

Zigurd wrote: post #505
mmooss wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a Waymo car has a huge impact compared to gig drivers. Even ones that do it 12 hours a day. The Waymo fleet is maximally available for both rush-hour busy times plus closing time at bars and nightclubs. What makes you say that there is a difference, the difference is in Waymo's favor, or that it's so large? Rideshare drivers also know about rush hour and closing time, and rideshare companies adjust availability for…

Of course they operate in the same market, and the influences of that market on supply are the same. But the response of gig drivers and autonomous vehicles to these influences and incentives is obviously not the same. It can't be the same. Gig drivers have range of needs and preferences. Waymo, same algorithm, same car, same user experience all the time. Forums like HN also tends to have a blind spot about consumer…

Why would the people who control Waymo be better at these things than the people who control Uber?

Again, the premise seems to be the fantasy that computers are objective, autonomous gods that don't have biases or errors, none of which is true. And again, it's bizarre to encounter that on HN of all places.

It's a very dangerous fantasy that sacrifices individual, rational thought and places all power in the hands of those who control the computers, like a cult.

Re: Waymo in Portland

#538

Post by HDThoreaun »

malfist wrote: post #508
Schiendelman wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of providing a bus exceeds the cost of operating a car in many cases, like lower population density neighborhoods. It may save the public money to centralize transit on major corridors and then subsidize trips on Waymo in some areas and at some times.

> cost of providing a bus exceeds the cost of operating a car in many cases You can fit 40-50 people in your car?

This only works if the bus is popular. How often do buses in Portland have more than 5 people on them?

Re: Waymo in Portland

#539

Post by Ritewut »

n8cpdx wrote: post #440
hackable_sand wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you didn't join the conversation, just listened from a distance and made assumptions?

I was busy. What is the assumption I’m accused of making?

You assumed they are against density and not just mourning a nostalgic place for them?

Re: Waymo in Portland

#540

Post by HDThoreaun »

raybb wrote: post #444
dmix wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not like the US didn't try. California spent 15yrs trying to build a high speed train and failed. Canada has been talking about building trains forever too and it usually goes nowhere because the budgets explode like every major infrastructure project these days. UK spent $100M just to deal with bats in a single train tunnel, which is representative of the issue https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9wryxyljglo

California high speed rail isn't running now but it is improving lots of things along the way. For example one of the most dangerous crossings in the state is now grade separated with the Rosecrans/Marquardt Grade Separation Project. https://www.metro.net/about/media-relations/156-million-new-...

Certainly worth $100 billion
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