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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#531

Post by 1123581321 »

digitalPhonix wrote: post #410
giantg2 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The objective evidence indicates that accidents tend to go up after red light cameras go up, generally because the operators lower the yellow light time to increase fees.

> generally because the operators lower the yellow light time to increase fees I'm skeptical of this claim because the red light camera operators are usually contracted by municipalities. They don't have any direct control over the light cycles. (Yes, obviously they can be in cahoots with the municipality, but I would be surprised if that was common and not the exception) Do you have any evidence of this?

Chicago is one publicized example. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/10/chicago-shortens...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#532

Post by protocolture »

kazinator wrote: post #242

> "I've been ticketed here twice, and it's ridiculous because they it's just not fair," one driver said who didn't want to be identified. Of course they don't want to be identified after blankly admitting they were ticketed; i.e. they were the one driving, in fact. Entitled prick: running red lights, and crying "unfair". > The person that does the determination when you ran the light, it's just a random. Whoever they…

>Of course they don't want to be identified after blankly admitting they were ticketed; i.e. they were the one driving, in fact.

In context of this article, being ticketed does not require to be the person driving.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#533

Post by kingofmen »

unselect5917 wrote: post #463
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I don't like paltry sums like this. $300 is a significant financial impact to someone who's barely making ends meet, and absolutely nothing at all to a billionaire. "If the penalty for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor." Make it a tiny % of net worth, with a modest minimum and watch EVERYONE obey. Or at least something meaningful to everyone, or don't make it a fine. Use some other carrot or s…

X% of net worth is still a bigger deal to someone with a net worth of $20 than to someone with a net worth of $20M, even though the latter may get some sticker shock. And it's possible (if rare) to have a reasonably middle-class lifestyle and an actually negative net worth. Presumably you would not make it possible to pay off student loans by repeatedly violating a red light, although it would be very funny.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#534

Post by no-name-here »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #474
_carbyau_ wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Do it as an increasing-upon-recurrence, two part fee though. 1st offence = base fee 2nd offence = base fee + minimal % of wealth fee 3rd offence = base fee + higher % of wealth fee offences thereafter = goto 3rd offence until some breaking point condition like gaol/jail. Otherwise the rich will happily pay to do whatever the hell they want.

How about you prove your claim by providing some evidence that the richer you are the more speeding tickets you get. Otherwise you're solving for a problem that doesn’t exist.

I read the grandparent comment's point as being about suggesting %-based fines.

> prove your claim by providing some evidence that the richer you are the more speeding tickets you get.

How/where did the grandparent comment claim that the rich get more speeding tickets? Even if the rich speed at a lower rate, would that make %-based fines a negative improvement?

> a problem that doesn’t exist

My assumption was the speeding is a problem no matter whether rich or poor, and that both exist. Is there disagreement there?

Instead, I think their point was that even a $100 fine for a poor person may impact their ability to pay for groceries, childcare, etc, whereas for someone who has $10 million, etc., even a $1,000 fine will not impact their ability to pay for groceries, childcare, etc as they still have $9,999,000.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#535

Post by tsimionescu »

otterley wrote: post #384
tsimionescu wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have every right to question you. Sure, but they have no right to issue you a ticket without proving you broke the law. Same as in the gun case: they have every right to question you, but they can't convict you for murder based solely on evidence that it was your gun that killed the victim.

A ticket (citation) is a promise to appear before a court, not a conviction of anything. Law enforcement can cite anyone with only reasonable suspicion than a crime or infraction has been committed.

I may have used "ticket" in a far too imprecise way, that may get a bit too much into the weeds of terminology and specific laws in specific states for me.

By my understanding, though, this case wasn't about a citation to appear in court, it was about automatic issuance of a fine + points on the driver's license of the owner of a car filmed blowing past a red light. Of course, you can sue the government to contest the penalties, but unless you do, you are liable for even worse penalties if you don't pay.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#536

Post by cindyllm »

no-name-here wrote: post #534
buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you prove your claim by providing some evidence that the richer you are the more speeding tickets you get. Otherwise you're solving for a problem that doesn’t exist.

I read the grandparent comment's point as being about suggesting %-based fines. > prove your claim by providing some evidence that the richer you are the more speeding tickets you get. How/where did the grandparent comment claim that the rich get more speeding tickets? Even if the rich speed at a lower rate, would that make %-based fines a negative improvement? > a problem that doesn’t exist My assumption was the spe…

[dead]

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#538

Post by kazinator »

protocolture wrote: post #532
kazinator wrote: post #242

> "I've been ticketed here twice, and it's ridiculous because they it's just not fair," one driver said who didn't want to be identified. Of course they don't want to be identified after blankly admitting they were ticketed; i.e. they were the one driving, in fact. Entitled prick: running red lights, and crying "unfair". > The person that does the determination when you ran the light, it's just a random. Whoever they…

>Of course they don't want to be identified after blankly admitting they were ticketed; i.e. they were the one driving, in fact. In context of this article, being ticketed does not require to be the person driving.

You don't say things like "I was ticketed here twice" if it was someone else using your car.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#539

Post by jan_g »

smsm42 wrote: post #428
jan_g wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But couldn't you then have the same argument for speeding tickets (or parking tickets)? Like, "I don't know who drove my car too fast or parked my car on the curb, so it's not my problem. The state should prove who did it.".

For the speeding ticket, if the police officer stops you, you'd get a ticket and would sign it, thus ensuring you were there. Or, if you refuse, the police officer would testify in court (if you would ask for a court hearing) that they saw you behind the wheel (and, likely now, you'd also be on bodycam). That would likely be enough evidence - which is why you probably don't want to go to court, because the judge woul…

I meant speeding cameras, where a system OCRs your license plate and you receive a fine after a month or even two months. Fine being monetary + points, depending on how fast you drove. Police officers measuring speed have become quite rare, at least here at my location (EU country). While speeding cameras are becoming quite common, especially in towns/cities and on the highways.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#540

Post by bluefirebrand »

californical wrote: post #517
iamnothere wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unjust BS and discriminates against poor families. Using this line of thinking, it will be a short time until you’re responsible for what a criminal does with your stolen vehicle; after all, you failed to secure it. I hope you get exactly what you’re asking for, and all the implications thereof (but in a state far from me). I feel certain you won’t enjoy it.

Obviously someone stealing a vehicle is different, as long as you’re reasonable about it. Leaving an unlocked car with keys in the ignition outside of a bank being robbed is different from someone breaking the window and spoofing your fob, and both of those are different from willingly giving the vehicle to someone. Also I mentioned criminal vs civil penalties being treated differently - I don’t believe the same scen…

> Obviously someone stealing a vehicle is different

But someone borrowing it with permission isn't?

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