Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

spectrum.ieee.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 1001 posts

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#531

Post by agentifysh »

antitoxic wrote: post #390

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

this is slightly better but not the hero we want or need. zeero knowledge proofs are improvement over uploading raw documents, trust is still an issue here. why should users have to authenticate with a government-backed identity wallet to access platforms to play games or access a website in the first place. we didnt have any of these guards in the 90s and early 2000s and everybody turned out just fine . in fact the average gen z is in a lot worse place than we used to be despite that we had complete raw algorithm supervision free access to the internet with far more disturbing content (remember ogrish and KaZaA)

The average person does not understand the math behind zero-knowledge proofs. They only see that state infrastructure is gatekeeping their web access. Furthermore, if the wallet relies on a centralized server for live revocation checks, the identity provider might still be able to log those authentication requests, effectively breaking anonymity at the state level.

On a practical level, this method verifies the presence of an authorized device rather than the actual human looking at the screen. Unless the wallet demands a live biometric scan for every single age check, they will simply bypass the system using a shared family computer or a parent's unlocked phone. We used to find our way around any sort of nanny software (remember net nanny)

what you are describing still remains a bubble and I really hope Americans aren't looking at EU for any sort of public policy directions here.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#532

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

tlogan wrote: post #96
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

The industry clearly prefers a system in which using the internet requires full identification. There are many powerful interests that support this model: - Governments benefit from easier monitoring and enforcement. - The advertising industry prefers verified identities for better targeting. - Social media companies gain more reliable data and engagement. - Online shopping companies can reduce fraud and increase tra…

You are missing the age/ID verification tech companies, who profit from violating privacy here. They have a strong incentive to try and convince/trick governments into legally requiring their services.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#533

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

uniq7 wrote: post #423
antitoxic wrote: post #390

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

In your system, can companies verify age offline, or do they need to send a token to the Government's authority to verify it (letting the Government identify and track users)? Switzerland is working on a system that does the former, but if Government really wants to identify users, they can still ask the company to provide the age verification tokens they collected, since the Government hosts a centralized database t…

Aren't the companies also expected to do revocation checking, essentially creating a record of who identified where, with a fig leaf of "pseudonymity" (that is one database join away from being worthless)?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#534

Post by iamnothere »

bilbo0s wrote: post #164
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

I think we should be careful of writing off this sea change as simple professional influence campaigns. That kind of thinking is just what got Trump to the Whitehouse, and is currently getting the immigrants rounded up. Things that didn't seem likely to have broad support previously, now are seen as acceptable. In the 90's no one could envision rounding up immigrants. No one could envision uploading an ID card to use…

You don’t think the current admin uses influence campaigns? They are called “influence” campaigns for a reason; they are intended to shape both beliefs and behaviors.

Things that have broad support now may have that support primarily because of longstanding influence campaigns.

Both the widespread growth in smoking, and its later drop in popularity, are often credited to determined influence campaigns. You are not immune to propaganda!

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#535

Post by everdev »

chris37879 wrote: post #515
techblueberry wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

Those execs were also using the tactics to addict adults, and while they may have targeted teens, the problem is, at its core: humans. So no amount of nannying by either the company nor the government will solve this issue. Who would be responsible if a child developed alcohol addiction? A nicotine problem? Any other addiction? Exactly. The same people that should be responsible for giving them unfettered access to a…

[dead]

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#536

Post by iamnothere »

Noaidi wrote: post #198
iamnothere wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that we aren’t doing age verification, it’s that a group of authoritarians are trying to force mandatory implementation of age verification (and concomitant removal of anonymity). That’s the problem.

Anonymity is a myth. I am sure by now an LLM can figure out who you are and where you live by your HN posts alone.

Do it then

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#537

Post by csours »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

I'm 40. Do I need to get my parents to vouch for me? Who vouches for them?

> then give parents strong monitoring and restriction tools

As written, this sounds very glib. I cannot take this comment seriously without a game theory scenario with multiple actors.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#538

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

illumanaughty wrote: post #48
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

There's a high chance the government is attempting to influence public opinion by using botted comments, which is easier than ever to pull off.

If you dig into the CEO of the The Age Verification Providers Association (AVPA), he has spent years going out of his way to spam pro-age verification propaganda across random sites like Techdirt and Michael Geist's blog.

Its not unreasonable to assume that he would seek to automate his bullshit.

See here for some examples:

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/08/26/who-would-benefit-from-c...

https://www.michaelgeist.ca/2025/10/senate-bill-would-grant-...

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#539

Post by Aurornis »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #519
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

You're understating the US's policy on recklessness. We have "attractive nuisances," which means that if you put a trampoline in your backyard, and a kid passing through sees it, decides to do a sick jump off of it, and breaks their leg, that was partly your fault for having something so awesome that kids would probably like.

> which means that if you put a trampoline in your backyard, and a kid passing through sees it, decides to do a sick jump off of it, and breaks their leg, that was partly your fault for having something so awesome that kids would probably like.

That's not exactly accurate. The two key parts of the attractive nuisance law are a failure to secure something combined with the victim being too young to understand the risks.

So if you put a trampoline in your front yard, that's an easy attractive nuisance case.

If you put a pool in your back yard with a fence and a locked gate, it would be much harder to argue that it was an attractive nuisance.

If a 17 year old kid comes along and breaks into your back yard by hopping a 6-foot tall fence, you'd also have a hard time knowing they didn't understand that their activities came with some risk. Most cases are about very young children, though there are exceptions

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#540

Post by [deleted] »

Gormo wrote: post #527
pokstad wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social media is like tobacco. We went after tobacco for targeting kids, we should do the same to social media. Highly engineered addictive content is not unlike what was done to cigarettes.

No, it isn't. Tobacco is a physical substance that alters users' biochemistry and creates a physical dependence. Social media is information conveyed via a computing device. You can criticize social media for what it is in its own right, without having to engage in these kinds of disingenuous equivocations.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN