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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#531

Post by YetAnotherNick »

lazide wrote: post #478
keeda wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want . A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where…

The situation re: psychological safety becomes very apparent when you mention to foreigners how often guns accidentally make it through TSA in peoples bags - and get discovered on screening on the return flight. Saucers for eyes, saucers! Hah The reality is that screening raises the bar enough that most casuals won’t risk it unless they’re crazy, which is worth something, and makes most people feel comfy, which is al…

So there are two kind of security, one is preventing innocents who mistakenly brings things like gun or flammable liquid like gasoline. The other is preventing people who actually want to do harm like terrorism. There is no doubt TSA is effective for first group. However the evidence against second group is kind of murky as no country has ever caught anyone in the second group till now.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#532

Post by kitd »

chias wrote: post #430
figassis wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is mostly security, but not to residents of the country. Those can enforce their rights. In my country, I can argue with airport security, and win. Foreigners can’t, so they follow whatever rules. A few times when landing in the US, security was extremely rude, I think just looking for an excuse (things like throwing your laptop a few feet away, while staring at you, etc). You take it bc you’re not home, and the c…

I tried to opt out in the UK last time I was there a few years ago. The agent looked at me, confused, and said "so... you don't want to get on the plane?". She told me the the UK didn't allow opt-outs. This was the only time I've gone through the machine since they were introduced.

Note that for the most part, air travel into/out of the UK is international, so the constraints are stricter.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#533

Post by aleph_minus_one »

keeda wrote: post #358
caseysoftware wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again. Then I realized I could even skip that. Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the m…

> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want . A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where…

> Even Bruce Schneier, who coined the term "security theater" has moderated his stance to acknowledge that it can satisfy a real psychological need, even if it's irrational.

What about the real psychological need of not wanting to be surveilled that also quite a lot of people have?

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#534

Post by tallanvor »

dzogchen wrote: post #464

Fun fact, I rarely have to show my ID when flying in the EU. But what I don’t understand is why so many people don’t have an ID in the US. Seems like one of the very basic service governments should provide.

Plenty of people have an ID in the US, the issue is whether or not those IDs are considered valid to get past security in the airport.

Did you know that Norway only introduced a national ID card in 2020? Until then if you didn't have a driver's license the only other state-issued ID option was a passport, and 10% of Norwegians don't have one. Until around 2015 or so banks would issue your bank card with a photo and your birthdate on it, and that was used as a de facto ID.

I've flown between plenty of EEA countries without ever having to show an ID. The requirement to have one in the US is incredibly stupid and only serves to make it harder for decent people to travel. It provides no actual value to safety.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#535

Post by rayiner »

tantalor wrote: post #295
rayiner wrote: post #125

Saying that there is “no legal requirement to show an ID” is truthy but misleading. Federal law gives the TSA authority over “screening” passengers: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44901 (“The Administrator of the Transportation Security Administration shall provide for the screening of all passengers and property, including United States mail, cargo, carry-on and checked baggage, and other articles, that…

> doesn't matter that Congress didn't specifically require... Actually it does matter. Chevron deference is gone. If Congress didn't specifically approve this method, it's not legal

Chevron just said that courts must defer to any reasonable interpretation of the statute by the agency. Getting rid of that just means that courts get to decide what words like “screening” mean. It doesn’t mean Congress needs to explicitly approve every method.

Chevron doesn’t change anything here. Checking IDs easily falls within the scope of the word “screening,” no matter who is deciding the meaning of that term.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#536

Post by scotty79 »

crazygringo wrote: post #66
glaucon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these checks and scrutiny and how are they applied in the time available? Given the time available is not great ("I'm on the next flight") and the amount of money is modest if humans are involved I'm intrigued to know what could be done that $45 would cover.

It's a database lookup that takes 5-15 minutes once you get to an available officer, but then depending on what it returns you may need additional screening, which will also need to wait for someone available. That's why if you don't have an ID, you should get to the airport at least an hour earlier than otherwise (already accounting for long security lines), and more during peak travel times. If you get slowed down,…

5 minutes for $45 bucks seems expensive. Also, they don't have to check your ID if you don't have one so less time spent on that

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#537

Post by mapt »

keeda wrote: post #358
caseysoftware wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again. Then I realized I could even skip that. Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the m…

> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want . A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where…

A growing part of me doesn't care, and doesn't want to coddle fascist mental illness.

If it was "Glass Iraq or make people take off their shoes", then I'll take the shoes...

But honestly? Fuck these people. We have extended them unlimited credit to make social change, and they always want more and worse changes. Their insecurities are inexhaustible. We need to declare them bankrupt of political capital. We need to bully them and make it clear their views aren't welcome, frankly.

We are 25 years deep into "Letting the terrorists win", and I'm fucking sick of it.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#538

Post by Ar-Curunir »

defrost wrote: post #324
chaboud wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have a Sikh manager who wore a turban. Whenever we traveled together, he would get "randomly" stopped. While they were patting him down, he would inevitably chuckle and say something like "So what are the odds of being 'randomly' selected 27 times in a row?" I don't know the specifics of the process for selection, but I can confidently say that the process is bigoted.

In proper English usage it would only be a bigoted (obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group) check if it was unreasonable to suspect a Sikh of carrying a Kirpan. The Rehat Maryada would suggest that is in no way whatsoever an unreasonable suspicion. Sure, yo…

Isn’t that what the scanners are for? To find large metallic objects? Why do you need additional “random” screenings behind that? Or are you saying the scanners don’t work to find even obvious weapons? If so, we should get rid of the scanners.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#539

Post by tallanvor »

urbandw311er wrote: post #461
Ms-J wrote: post #444

No one should be forced to give an ID for a domestic flight. It always used to be that way. Every day there is huge amount of chipping away at our freedoms. Someone pointed out amazing advice on how to skip certain checks in this thread, well done. Any chance you get to regain freedom, by any means, take it.

Does a small part of you not feel the urge, however, to check who people are before letting them on your plane. By which I mean, after 9/11 and all that happened there.

No, why would it? When I take the bus, subway, or train, nobody is checking IDs - at most they check if I have a valid ticket, which can be bought with cash.

I've flown many times within the EU/EEA without showing an ID, so I fail to see why traveling within the US should be any different. I've spent most of my life in the US, but the only times I've been in close proximity of terrorist events have been in Norway (Breivik's bomb went off two blocks away from where I worked at the time, and more recently the shooting outside London Pub that killed two and injured multiple others).

I wish I understood why the US feels the need to overreact to everything.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#540

Post by mapt »

diblasio wrote: post #402
chaboud wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have a Sikh manager who wore a turban. Whenever we traveled together, he would get "randomly" stopped. While they were patting him down, he would inevitably chuckle and say something like "So what are the odds of being 'randomly' selected 27 times in a row?" I don't know the specifics of the process for selection, but I can confidently say that the process is bigoted.

Same thing used to happen to me when I had dreadlocks. Made the same joke too. "what are the odds I'd get randomly selected 100% of the time I go through a checkpoint..."

Rastafarian hijackers are rampant.
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