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After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

atmoio.substack.com

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Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#531

Post by skydhash »

MarsIronPI wrote: post #484
logicprog wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I actually don't like _writing_ code, but enjoy reading it. I think this is one of the divides between people who like AI and people who don't. I don't mind writing code per se , but I really don't like text editing — and I've used Vim (Evil mode) and then Emacs (vanilla keybindings) for years, so it's not like I'm using bad tools; it's just too fiddly. I don't like moving text around; munging control structures fr…

I don't want to be "that guy", but I'll indulge myself. > I think this is one of the divides between people who like AI and people who don't. I don't mind writing code per se, but I really don't like text editing — and I've used Vim (Evil mode) and then Emacs (vanilla keybindings) for years, so it's not like I'm using bad tools; it's just too fiddly. I feel the same way (to at least some extent) about every language…

A bit different from you

When I code, I mostly go by two perspectives: The software as a process and the code as a communication medium.

With the software as a process, I'm mostly thinking about the semantics of each expressions. Either there's a final output (transient, but important) or there's a mutation to some state. So the code I'm writing is for making either one possible and the process is very pleasing, like building a lego. The symbols are the bricks and other items which I'm using to create things that does what I want.

With the code as communication, I mostly take the above and make it readable. Like organizing files, renaming variables and functions, modularising pieces of code. The intent is for other people (including future me) to be able to understand and modify what I created in the easiest way possible.

So the first is me communicating with the machine, the second is me communicating with the humans. The first is very easy, you only need to know the semantics of the building blocks of the machine. The second is where the craft comes in.

Emacs (also Vim) makes both easy. Code has a very rigid structure and both have tools that let you manipulate these structure either for adding new actions or refine the shape for understanding.

With AI, it feels like painting with a brick. Or transmitting critical information through a telephone game. Control and Intent are lost.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#532

Post by habinero »

ModernMech wrote: post #417
crystal_revenge wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent's profile shows that they are an experienced software engineer in multiple areas of software development. Your own profile says you are a PM whose software skills amount to "Script kiddie at best but love hacking things together." It seems like the "separate worlds" you are describing is the impression of reviewing the code base from a seasoned engineer vs an amateur. It shouldn't be even a little surprising t…

> It shouldn't be even a little surprising that your impression of the result is that the code is much better looking than the impression of a more experienced developer. This really is it: AI produces bad to mediocre code. To someone who produces terrible code mediocre is an upgrade, but to someone who produces good to excellent code, mediocre is a downgrade.

Yeah. It turns 0.05X developers into 0.2X developers and 1X developers into 0.9-1.1X developers.

The problem is the 0.05X developers thought they were 0.5X and now they think they're 20X.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#533

Post by bofadeez »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #510
bofadeez wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many more appeal-to-authority counter arguments are going to be made in this thread

They are more effective then on the ground in your face evidence largely because people who are so against AI are blind to it. I hold a result of AI in front of your face and they still proclaim it’s garbage and everything else is fraudulent. Let’s be clear. You’re arguing against a fantasy. Nobody even proponents of AI claims that AI is as good as humans. Nowhere near it. But they are good enough for pair programmin…

I think the author is way understating the uselessness of LLMs in any serious context outside of a demo to an investor. I've had nothing but low IQ nonsense from every SOTA model.

If we're being honest with ourselves, Opus 4.5 / GPT 5.2 etc are maybe 10-20% better than GPT 3.5 at most. It's a total and absolute catastrophic failure that will go down in history as one of humanity's biggest mistakes.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#534

Post by dyauspitr »

maurits wrote: post #137

I tell my students that they can watch sports on tv, but it will not make them fit. On a personal note, vibe coding leaves me with that same empty hollow sort of tiredness, as a day filled with meetings.

Outcomes are all that matter.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#535

Post by _carbyau_ »

daotoad wrote: post #507
charcircuit wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of school for me was to get a degree. 99% of the time at school was useless. The internet was a much better learning resources. Even more so now that AI exists.

For a motivated learner with access to good materials, schools provide two important things besides that very important piece of paper: 1. contacts - these come in the form of peers who are interested in the same things and in the form of experts in their fields of study. Talking to these people and developing relationships will help you learn faster, and teach you how to have professional collegial relationships. Th…

To extend 2. facilities, my experience had a - somewhat older and smaller - supercomputer that we got to run some stuff on.

And I'd argue for:

3. Realisation of the scope of computing.

IE Computers are not just phones/laptop/desktop/server with networking - all hail the wonders of the web... There are embedded devices, robots, supercomputers. (Recent articles on HN describe the computing power in a disposable vape!)

There are issues at all levels with all of these with algorithms, design, fabrication, security, energy, societal influence, etc etc - what tradeoffs to make where. (Why is there computing power in a disposable vape?!?)

I went in thinking I knew 20% and I would learn the other 80% of IT. I came out knowing 5 times as much but realising I knew a much smaller percentage of IT... It was both enabling and humbling.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#536

Post by system2 »

dv_dt wrote: post #23

I think there is going to be an AI eternal summer. Both from developer to AI spec - where the AI implements to the spec to some level of quality, but then closing the gap after that is an endless chase of smaller items that don't all resolve at the same time. And from people getting frustrated with some AI implemented app, and so go off and AI implement another one, with a different set of features and failings.

Non-ai software reality is not that different.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#537

Post by habinero »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #510
bofadeez wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many more appeal-to-authority counter arguments are going to be made in this thread

They are more effective then on the ground in your face evidence largely because people who are so against AI are blind to it. I hold a result of AI in front of your face and they still proclaim it’s garbage and everything else is fraudulent. Let’s be clear. You’re arguing against a fantasy. Nobody even proponents of AI claims that AI is as good as humans. Nowhere near it. But they are good enough for pair programmin…

If you want to be any good at all in this industry, you have to develop enough technical skills to evaluate claims for yourself. You have to. It's essential.

Because the dirty secret is a lot of successful people aren't actually smart or talented, they just got lucky. Or they aren't successful at all, they're just good at pretending they are, either through taking credit for other people's work or flat out lying.

I've run into more than a few startups that are just flat out lying about their capabilities and several that were outright fraud. (See DoNotPay for a recent fraud example lol)

Pointing to anyone and going "well THEY do it, it MUST work" is frankly engineering malpractice. It might work. But unless you have the chops to verify it for yourself, you're just asking to be conned.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#538

Post by habinero »

ikrenji wrote: post #315
echohack5 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found AI great in alot of scenarios but If I have a specific workflow, then the answer is specific and the ai will get it wrong 100% of the time. You have a great point here. A trivial example is your happy path git workflow. I want: - pull main - make new branch in user/feature format - Commit, always sign with my ssh key - push - open pr but it always will - not sign commits - not pull main - not know to reb…

Is commit history that useful? I never wanted to look up anything in it that couldn't be solved with git log | grep xyz...

No-ish if you work by yourself, yes if you work with anybody else.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#539

Post by godelski »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

It feels like coding agents have just abstracted the old programming problem of "computers do what you tell them, not what you mean to tell them"

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#540

Post by mike741 »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #511
ActorNightly wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non sequitor. You don't have to be bad at coding to use LLMs. The argument was specifically about thinking that LLMS can be great at accomplishing complex tasks (which they are not)

Wtf are you talking about. Great programmers use LLMs for complex tasks. That was the point of my comment

You didn't state any complex tasks though. You only stated programmers who use LLMs.
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