Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15 • Hacker News Board

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#531

Post by mattlondon » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 3:09 PM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #492

mattlondon wrote: post #292

I know it's a joke, but if you clip a curb or even a slightly chunky branch at 15mph in one of these EVERYONE DIES (...only partially joking) In a crash it'll fold up like the tin can it is, even against a car of a similar vintage and size (no comment on the cows). Up against even a modern supermini and you're literal mince meat, let alone a modern SUV. At least you won't suffer long. So if you are off roading or on…

The Citroen Saxo was notably terrible. It was remarked upon even at the time, especially due to the target market of its sportier versions: foolish young men. Here's another hatchback from 2000, faring noticeably better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBXNgKwWFs - not to say for a moment that you wouldn't still want a 2025 car.

That video is not available for me.

But it's not like the saxo was unusually bad - here is another typical car from the same era https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M0P9MistIDg - the interior angles (especially the footwell camera) are particularly chilling and terrifying!

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#532

Post by IgorPartola » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 3:09 PM UTC

LeChuck wrote: post #511

IgorPartola wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about gravel? Fill? A yard of mulch? Manure? Construction debris?

Indeed. When is was remodeling my house, I bought an old van for €2000,- (the successor to the C15, actually) * I had no compunction to fill it with debris, earth, sand etc. but that’s not something your European tradesman does. He uses a separate trailer. * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/2005_Cit...

OK but I do not live in Europe (though I am originally from there). You are trying to convince me that there is no possible utility that a pickup truck can have where I live, despite you having no experience with it. I am telling you from personal experience that it does have utility while also having had experience with using cars, vans, trailers, and delivery services. What makes you so convinced that your lack of experience makes you correct and my years of experience makes me incorrect?

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#533

Post by tmerc » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 3:11 PM UTC

bri3d wrote: post #395

Braxton1980 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modules need to be programmed for your vehicle specs and country because there are different laws and functions. For example rear taillights are different in Europe vs the US. Another is that higher trims of my car have a rear climate zone which has a different fan and actuators for air flow that the module needs to know exist.

Sure, but the reasons programming requires proprietary software accessible only to the dealer via some kind of online access are depressing: laziness, greed, and crime. Making software that's usable by independent shops and consumers costs money, eliminates business lock-in to dealers, and boosts the gray/black market for broken or stolen parts, so the only reason manufacturers do it at all is when they are required…

Calling bs.

It takes more effort to implement proprietary protocols and codes in addition to the globally mandated obd2 protocol. You can extend obd2 with additional codes that could be read by a simple device. It costs money to run servers that check your license to read those proprietary codes. It's not laziness.

The black market on stolen parts isn't affected by this. Catalytic converter are stolen and resold all the time and swapping one doesn't require anything more complex than a socket set and a new gasket (assuming the thief didn't use a cutting tool, but then you just weld). Cats also get sold for scrap, so not sure what the software lock is gonna do for that.

Hellcat engines get swapped all the time. ECUs get flashed by the black market regardless of the software locks.

But what we see this proprietary software get used for is blocking the ability to swap brake pads and block heated seats.

So it's not crime, but I'll agree on greed.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#534

Post by bri3d » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 3:25 PM UTC

tmerc wrote: post #533

bri3d wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the reasons programming requires proprietary software accessible only to the dealer via some kind of online access are depressing: laziness, greed, and crime. Making software that's usable by independent shops and consumers costs money, eliminates business lock-in to dealers, and boosts the gray/black market for broken or stolen parts, so the only reason manufacturers do it at all is when they are required…

Calling bs. It takes more effort to implement proprietary protocols and codes in addition to the globally mandated obd2 protocol. You can extend obd2 with additional codes that could be read by a simple device. It costs money to run servers that check your license to read those proprietary codes. It's not laziness. The black market on stolen parts isn't affected by this. Catalytic converter are stolen and resold all…

Did you miss the

> Making software that's usable by independent shops and consumers costs money

sentence before “calling BS”?

> The black market on stolen parts isn't affected by this.

Cars have more parts than a catalyst, and the used parts market is absolutely, 100% affected by software adaptation locks. You can watch the price of used engine control modules, instrument clusters, and infotainment modules rise as soon as aftermarket tools come out which bypass protections, and the tools to do so are worth a significant sum of money.

> Hellcat engines get swapped all the time

Yes, all protections are eventually bypassed, especially weak Stellantis ones, but that doesn’t mean that the goal wasn’t anti-theft, just that the goals were badly achieved.

Anyway, I think we broadly agree that vehicle diagnostics should be more open, but discounting crime and “security” as objectives doesn’t work, because they’re the main arguments used against regulatory efforts to improve the situation.

EDIT: I read again and I suppose you are arguing that diagnostic tools don’t or shouldn’t cost manufacturers money to make; I simply can’t agree with this argument, any software has a support and maintenance cost which scales with the type and number of users.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#535

Post by criddell » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 4:06 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #495

criddell wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my kids were small, we bought a minivan and it was pretty awesome. I really hadn’t thought much about it until… A couple of years ago, I rented one to help my kids move into college. It was a Chrysler of some kind and now I’m kind of tempted to buy one. The seats disappear into the floor and then you can carry full sheets of plywood. It’s front wheel drive and drives like a car. Super comfortable, super configur…

> But it’s just sooooo dorky The hedonistic treadmill of family cars is so funny to me. First station wagons were the soccer mom car, so everyone got minivans, then minivans were the soccer mom car so everyone got SUVs, and now crossovers. What's next? When do we get to loop around like fashion does?

That’s a funny observation.

I just can’t get a minivan, but I love station wagons. Unfortunately, they are getting more difficult to get.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#536

Post by MrGilbert » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 4:11 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #509

alextingle wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that's what customers want, or maybe it's what dealers want? The check engine light tells you nothing. It tells your local mechanic nothing. Do you can't get the problem fixed easily or cheaply. What it does, is force you to take the car to a dealer, who has the specialist, proprietary equipment needed to interpret the fault. And these gatekeepers will charge you a fat premium for that. So no. I don't th…

the check engine light tells you there's an OBD code available to be read. you can buy a reader for $20 on amazon, or your local hardware store, or i've even seen them at gas stations. you don't need "specialist proprietary equipment" that "gatekeepers charge a fat premium" for. this isn't magic. most people take it to a mechanic instead, because that's what they'd rather do.

Even if I get the DTC codes out of the OBD - and then? Without the manufacturers service manual, I'm lost at interpreting the codes. For older cars, these manuals are somehow "obtainable" through "sources", but do not expect the manufacturer to help you out if, in fact, you are interested in fixing your own car.

So yes - it’s the industry that got us screwed.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#537

Post by seec » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 4:27 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #285

graemep wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you are right that this is linked to how much time people spend in their cars. I am quite happy with a cheap car because I do not use it everyday, and even when I do the majority of my journeys are short ones (15 to 20 min).

I really wish there were an even cheaper car for that use case. Perhaps billed as a second car for families, where one is used just for commuting and errands, and the other is the general purpose one with a longer range. Say, with an 80 mile battery, two seats, and under $10k. I gather that they exist in China and might be allowed into the US. I'd buy one.

Same. Something like the Citroen AMI but with better range and speed, probably slighty bigger and around 10K.

I doubt it's going to happen because that would kill a large part of the market : every familly that needs 2 cars just because they go to work to different places but would only use a single car for the heavy duty or long range needs. At the start it would be a hard sell for many because of social status but overtime people end up voting with their wallet, so it could work. But that would be a pretty bad deal for the industry, so they'll only turn to that if they can't sell anything else.

Nowadays even the smallest cars starts around 20k, which is absurd and it even affect the second hand market because cars maintain their value better thanks to this pricing.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#538

Post by seec » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 4:47 PM UTC

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #390

Aurornis wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN commenters and their friends are an extremely biased sample set. The sales numbers don’t lie about the global demand though.

I am aware. My point was basically that the people who wanted them weren’t lying, they really love them, and are willing to keep them for years even though they are getting slightly old now. I’m imagining this doesn’t show up in first year sales numbers in a similar way to how the things people say they want in cars typically drive used market buying not new market purchases. I’ve tried to validate this hypothesis, b…

I think you are right because people who bought minis got them for a specific reason and now there is just nothing in the market that can pretend to replace it.

My own mini has not been upgraded to latest iOS but I know it is in short probation before it gets really unusuable. It's pretty bad with swapping already because Apple was so stingy with the godamn RAM (it's insane how much modern apps use for not much more utility).

The problem is that I have really no clue what to buy, even if I were to go Android. I just can't find a phone that I think merit the tradeoffs of form factor, I just don't have much use for all the modern gimmicks. A better battery life would be nice but it's not even a big deal in my case.

The problem is basically the same as for cars. People are buying larger phones with many useless features for social status reasons or aspirational/fashion statement.

The smartphone as a tool was a finished product a long time ago but now they keep adding all kind of extra stuff that even manage to kill the initial feature of conveniently fitting in an average pocket.

I would compare that to Victorinox Swiss knifes: there are a handfull or reasonably sized models with all the tools you are likely to need for small tasks and there are monstrosities that have 100+ tools that are so large, even using them as a knife is inconvenient. If people would buy Victorinox Swiss knifes like they buy smartphones, most would get the largely useless bigger ones.

Most people are not very rational and make purchasing decision not on their needs but because of trends, marketing, social status, peer pressure, etc... When a market becomes very large and target the whole population at once, products tends to get pretty bad because they are not focused on specific use case and try to please everyone, really pleasing no one in the end. Since there is not much other choices than to follow, people deal with it and that's that.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#539

Post by ErroneousBosh » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 4:59 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #386

ErroneousBosh wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Can you please not cross-examine in HN comments? This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . We want friendly curious conversation, not questions designed to incriminate or insinuate. You're welcome, of course, to make your substantive points thoughtfully.

Sorry. The question was rhetorical.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#540

Post by tmerc » Sun, Jan 11, 2026, 5:49 PM UTC

bri3d wrote: post #534

tmerc wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling bs. It takes more effort to implement proprietary protocols and codes in addition to the globally mandated obd2 protocol. You can extend obd2 with additional codes that could be read by a simple device. It costs money to run servers that check your license to read those proprietary codes. It's not laziness. The black market on stolen parts isn't affected by this. Catalytic converter are stolen and resold all…

Did you miss the > Making software that's usable by independent shops and consumers costs money sentence before “calling BS”? > The black market on stolen parts isn't affected by this. Cars have more parts than a catalyst, and the used parts market is absolutely, 100% affected by software adaptation locks. You can watch the price of used engine control modules, instrument clusters, and infotainment modules rise as so…

Didn't miss that making software costs money. The point is making it protected costs more money and mainly hurts independent repair shops and consumers. Afaik, manufactures can set obd2 codes outside the mandatory codes, but still compatible with the protocol. If they elect to not do this in favor of creating their own protocol, I think we can agree that it costs more but does not have any benefit other than to the manufacturer and dealer network.

I do agree that diagnostics need to be open. I discount security because at the end of the day, an engine is a bunch of metal. Put a haltec on it and all that security means nothing. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have immobilizers, strong encryption in our key fobs, etc. Security should be to keep the car and the contents from being stolen in the first place. But a flat bed bypasses all security as does a chop shop. So given that low value of bcm to ecu and similar "security" once a vehicle has been stolen, I'd rather be able to swap a good engine into a good body and keep a car on the road rather than in the junk yard.

Sorry for the hot take of bs. I own both of my cars outright and the industry trying to keep me from fixing what I own has me a bit upset. The security argument in the parent post sounds a lot like the "don't give our keys to China" propaganda.