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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#531

Post by LEDThereBeLight »

undeveloper wrote: post #476
mvdtnz wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but giving a 7 year old prozac is psycho behaviour.

do you genuinely think depression is preferable? suicidality?

What do they do when they turn 15, realize they, say, have no sex drive, but have been on anti depressants for years and cannot take a break from life in order to now learn the emotional regulation skills they should have developed from 7-15? Antidepressants often mask issues which later manifest in unexpected ways, even if you don’t notice any immediate side effects.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#532

Post by potsandpans »

tomhow wrote: post #517
potsandpans wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when things don't go your way, You're a ridiculous person. > or alternatively to keep using HN for political/ideological battle Which ones? The one about ML and programming languages? Or the one about asking a genuine question about an experience with childhood depression? Or the one observing that you and dang unevenly apply moderation rules? Or the one commenting about how you can't say the word for the literal d…

I've scanned your full list of comments and can find plenty that have an ideological flavor to them, and others that are in the flamewar style, but are not so clearly related to politics/ideology. I'm not interested in getting into an argument about which of your comments are ideological or not. That's not the issue. What is the issue is the hostile and inflammatory style of commenting towards other community members…

> What is the issue is the hostile and inflammatory style of commenting towards other community members and HN as a whole.

Please.

> having established a history of participating on HN with this persona of being a brave combatant for, I don't know, some worldview or philosophy that you seem to be fighting for;

What? Just because I have a different worldview than you, doesn't mean I am fighting for or am a brave combatant of anything. But it's extremely telling that you think that, and revealing about your own views. And furthermore troubling that you are a moderator here.

Maybe you should read up on the clustering phenomena wiki and understand your own personal biases a little more.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#533

Post by wetpaws »

quantum_magpie wrote: post #489
wkat4242 wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And it's a combination usually. It's really hard to do constructive therapy when you are depressed. Stabilise with the meds and then tackle the root causes with therapy. But some people just are very prone to depression and need the extra help. You wouldn't say "don't give that kid ibuprofen, let them just deal with the pain"? And SSRIs are not very strong. They do have some nasty side effects especially sex…

I would be very cautious advising SSRIs for anyone, especially developing children, considering my own experience (on sertralin), which was complete disappearance of a libido, and massive weight gain, +40kg (70 -> 110) in ~10 months. 5 years later I still have not undone the damage from it.

[dead]

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#534

Post by ryeights »

staticman2 wrote: post #500
ryeights wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a side effect is extremely rare it would be impossible or at least impractical to prove in a population. This is also true for a non-existent side effect. I’m not trying to tell GP he is wrong, just that from a reader’s perspective, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

This isn't a good fit for the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Grandparent's report is hard to verify, not extraordinary. These drugs are approved based on statistical safety profiles in limited trial populations, not on a scientific consensus that absolutely nobody on Earth will ever experience a unique adverse reaction. Also, I never said that you, the reader, had an obligation to chang…

Millions of people take SSRIs on a daily basis without these dramatic symptoms. Millions more tried them (for much longer periods than 5 days) and then desisted from treatment without major lifelong mental alterations. So yes, I would say GP’s experience is ‘extraordinary’, i.e., outside of the ordinary expectation

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#535

Post by tomhow »

potsandpans wrote: post #532
tomhow wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've scanned your full list of comments and can find plenty that have an ideological flavor to them, and others that are in the flamewar style, but are not so clearly related to politics/ideology. I'm not interested in getting into an argument about which of your comments are ideological or not. That's not the issue. What is the issue is the hostile and inflammatory style of commenting towards other community members…

> What is the issue is the hostile and inflammatory style of commenting towards other community members and HN as a whole. Please. > having established a history of participating on HN with this persona of being a brave combatant for, I don't know, some worldview or philosophy that you seem to be fighting for; What? Just because I have a different worldview than you, doesn't mean I am fighting for or am a brave comba…

> I have a different worldview than you

You don't know what my worldview is or what dang's worldview is and honestly I don't know what your worldview is and this is never relevant to how we moderate HN. We want HN to be a place where difficult topics can be discussed and all perspectives can be represented. That's what we optimise HN for, with the caveat that the guidelines foremost ask us all to "be kind" in comments. It's notable that you keep complaining about some kind of "bias" without being able to point to any evidence for your claims, and that all of your comments in this subthread ultimately resort to ad hominem. If there was any substance to your claims you would have presented it by now. The entire history of HN submissions and comments is available for anyone to download and analyse.

Let's be clear what's going on here: you've claimed to be a victim; you can't demonstrate exactly how you've been made a victim; when we investigate your claims, which we've taken time to do in good faith, we find that, no, there's no evidence for your claims of victimhood; when we tell you that, you respond with ad hominem attacks.

Please just observe the guidelines like everyone here is expected to do.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#536

Post by throaway19852 »

dekhn wrote: post #186
hintklb wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I agree or disagree with the underlying claim but a call to "credentialism" to dismiss someone's opinion is not as strong in 2025 as you think it is. The last few years have been a proof that even the "experts" are following strong political or personal ideology. Also we don't live in the 18th century anymore. A lot of knowledge (especially around medicine) is open to the world. People can read papers, under…

In this area, having credentials makes a difference. Experts matter. Few if any non-medical people can read medical papers and make sense of what they say. There is simply far too much context to evaluate such papers, especially in the cases of complex medical conditions.

Ya, well i was diagnosed with a serious genetic condition by my doctor. I found out i was misdiagnosed based on information from the support group for the condition. If I hadn't, I would have had unnecessary surgery.

The excuse from my doctor? "I didn't know!"

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#537

Post by potsandpans »

tomhow wrote: post #535
potsandpans wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the issue is the hostile and inflammatory style of commenting towards other community members and HN as a whole. Please. > having established a history of participating on HN with this persona of being a brave combatant for, I don't know, some worldview or philosophy that you seem to be fighting for; What? Just because I have a different worldview than you, doesn't mean I am fighting for or am a brave comba…

> I have a different worldview than you You don't know what my worldview is or what dang's worldview is and honestly I don't know what your worldview is and this is never relevant to how we moderate HN. We want HN to be a place where difficult topics can be discussed and all perspectives can be represented. That's what we optimise HN for, with the caveat that the guidelines foremost ask us all to "be kind" in comment…

I've been here on this account for five years. Making me out to be some kind of serial complainer and self-proclaimed victim, of which I've done exactly twice across a litany of diverse and continued conversation and dialog on this website is ludicrous.

Your continued aggressive dismissal of milquetoast commentary against your moderation style is offensive.

Your characterization of my posts here as a warrior championing some cause is similarly offensive.

Your words, not mine:

> ... having established a history of participating on HN with this persona of being a brave combatant ...

How kind, and full of good faith.

You clearly feel something towards my worldview. Your language is charged, you have opinions directed at me. To be clear: I don't care about you at all. But I do find it amusing to watch such a visceral reaction to a general commentary, "the mods are biased, and shape the bias of this website."

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#538

Post by tomhow »

potsandpans wrote: post #537
tomhow wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a different worldview than you You don't know what my worldview is or what dang's worldview is and honestly I don't know what your worldview is and this is never relevant to how we moderate HN. We want HN to be a place where difficult topics can be discussed and all perspectives can be represented. That's what we optimise HN for, with the caveat that the guidelines foremost ask us all to "be kind" in comment…

I've been here on this account for five years. Making me out to be some kind of serial complainer and self-proclaimed victim, of which I've done exactly twice across a litany of diverse and continued conversation and dialog on this website is ludicrous. Your continued aggressive dismissal of milquetoast commentary against your moderation style is offensive. Your characterization of my posts here as a warrior champion…

You initiated all this. We've investigated and considered all your claims, established them to be unfounded or baseless, and still you keep going.

Your worldview is irrelevant to this discussion. This place’s entire worth is built on the fact that a broad range of worldviews and discussion styles is represented, and our moderation philosophy is intended to allow everyone’s worldview to be fairly represented.

We're responding to your claims only because if there is any basis to them we want to know so we can address any issues and reform the way we operate. We’re actively working to do that continually. But it’s increasingly clear that none of your claims hold up to any scrutiny and every additional comment just generates more noise and still no signal.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#539

Post by intull »

techietim wrote: post #123
robertakarobin wrote: post #108

I was very young when my mom started Prozac but do remember how angry and sad she was before compared to after. Years later there was a time when me and my sister noticed our mom was acting a bit strange -- more snappish and irritable than usual, and she even started dressing differently. Then at dinner she announced proudly that she had been off Prozac for a month. My sister and I looked at each other and at the sam…

> my 7-year-old son just started half that dose This is horrifying.

If you're horrified that we are in a world and society where a 7yo has been put in a position where antidepressants help them, yeah, that's understandable. If you're horrified that a kid is taking them, that the parents sought medical intervention for "just a kid", then, I'd say you're reacting to the concept of a kid on antidepressants than actually listening to the OP and their family's history and story.

Often, people react to the concept of a thing rather than the ground reality of life and its complexities of lived experience. Most people also extrapolate (in either direction) others' lived experiences based on their learnings, understandings, pasts and future ambitions. In this case especially, there's also added stigma around mental health, antidepressants and the locus of personal responsibility when it comes to mental health issues.

The _concept_ of a child on antidepressants suspends trust in parents, that's often assumed and unquestioned depending, depending on the child's age. Maybe close to 18yo? Supportive parents. 7yo? Horrible parents. I'd argue it also tends to suspend critical thinking and introduces an unshakeable bias, that a child of 7yo _never [ever]_ needs antidepressants. Why? What makes you say that? What's your evidence and reasoning?

If you feel so horrified by that, can you consider for a moment that the parents recognize the weight and gravity of this decision too? That they had to really think this through, pursue more thorough medical advice than usual, make a judgement call, and have to live through this decision throughout all their lives?

OP's response to multiple comments indicates that they did not make this decision lightly and without making sure that this was the better thing to do overall. I commend OP's openness and honesty in talking about it. It's certainly inspiring to see a parent care for their child's mental health, and not dismissing that to be "oh, the kid's just young and moody, they'll feel better tomorrow."

PS. We (as a society) are always learning more and newer things about mental health and treatments. It might look like we know a lot. Perhaps. But we also don't know so much!

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#540

Post by intull »

EtienneDeLyon wrote: post #473
robertakarobin wrote: post #108

I was very young when my mom started Prozac but do remember how angry and sad she was before compared to after. Years later there was a time when me and my sister noticed our mom was acting a bit strange -- more snappish and irritable than usual, and she even started dressing differently. Then at dinner she announced proudly that she had been off Prozac for a month. My sister and I looked at each other and at the sam…

A seven-year old child is being given a brain-altering drug? I am very happy such drugs did not exist when I was seven years old.

Under-nourishment/malnutrition, traumatic incidents/events, genetics, societal conditions, bullying and abuse, and so many things are also all brain altering. Why do we not consider them so and turn a blind eye to all that?
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