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OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

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Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#531

Post by conartist6 »

rubslopes wrote: post #423
alex-moon wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you've never done therapy yourself. Most people who have worked with a professional therapist understand intuitively why the only helpful feedback from an LLM to someone who needs professional help is: get professional help. AIs are really good at doing something to about 80%. When the stakes are life or death, as they are with someone who is suicidal, that is a good example of a time when 80% isn't good en…

A bit of a counterpoint. I've done 3 years of therapy with an amazing professional. I can't exaggerate how much good it did; I'm a different person, I'm not an anxious person anymore. I think I have a good idea of how good human therapy is. I was discharged about 2 years ago. Last Saturday, I was a little distressed about a love-hate relationship that I have with one of the things that I work with, so I tried using A…

You're allowing yourself to think of it like a person, which is a scary risk. A person, it is not.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#532

Post by butlike »

alex-moon wrote: post #317
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would need the big picture, though... maybe it caused that death (which is awful) but it's also saving lives? If there are that many people confiding in it, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually prevents some suicides with encouraging comments, and that's not going to make the news. Before declaring that it shouldn't be near anyone with psychological issues, someone in the relevant field should study whether the…

I suspect you've never done therapy yourself. Most people who have worked with a professional therapist understand intuitively why the only helpful feedback from an LLM to someone who needs professional help is: get professional help. AIs are really good at doing something to about 80%. When the stakes are life or death, as they are with someone who is suicidal, that is a good example of a time when 80% isn't good en…

What are you talking about? I can grow food myself, and I can build a car from scratch and take it on the highway. Are there repercussions? Sure, but nothing inherently stops me from doing it.

The problem here is there's no measurable "win condition" for when a person gets good information that helps them. They remain alive, which was their previous state. This is hard to measure. Now, should people be able to google their symptoms and try and help themselves? This dovetails into a deeper philosophical discussion, but I'm not entirely convinced "seek professional help" is ALWAYS the answer. ALWAYS and NEVER are _very_ long timeframes, and we should be careful when using them.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#533

Post by butlike »

ethbr1 wrote: post #528
alex-moon wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't accept the unregulated and uncontrolled use of LLMs for therapy for the same reason I don't accept arguments like "We should deregulate food safety because it means more food at lower cost to consumers" or "We should waive minimum space standards for permitted developments on existing buildings because it means more housing." We could "solve" the homeless problem tomorrow simply by building tenements (that is…

> "We should waive minimum space standards for permitted developments on existing buildings because it means more housing." We could "solve" the homeless problem tomorrow simply by building tenements (that is why they existed in the first place after all). ... the entire reason tenements and boarding houses no longer exist is because most governments regulated them out of existence (e.g. by banning shared bathrooms t…

Small edit:

> ... the entire reason tenements and boarding houses no longer exist

... the entire reason tenements and boarding houses no longer exist _where you live_

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#534

Post by butlike »

grey-area wrote: post #245
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would need the big picture, though... maybe it caused that death (which is awful) but it's also saving lives? If there are that many people confiding in it, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually prevents some suicides with encouraging comments, and that's not going to make the news. Before declaring that it shouldn't be near anyone with psychological issues, someone in the relevant field should study whether the…

A word generator with no intelligence or understanding based on the contents of the internet should not be allowed near suicidal teens, nor should it attempt to offer advice of any kind. This is basic common sense. Add in the commercial incentives of 'Open'AI to promote usage for anything and everything and you have a toxic mix.

Yet, if you ask the word generator to generate words in the form of advice, like any machine or code, it will do exactly what you tell it to do. The fact people are asking implies a lack of common sense by your definition.

Sertraline can increase suicidal thoughts in teens. Should anti-depressants not be allowed near suicidal/depressed teens?

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#535

Post by butlike »

wongarsu wrote: post #263
grey-area wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, do no harm.

That relates more to purposefully harming some people to safe other people. Doing something that has the potential to harm a person but statistically has a greater likelihood of helping them is something doctors do all the time. They will even use methods that are guaranteed to do harm to the patient, as long as they have a sufficient chance to also bring a major benefit to the same patient

An example being: surgery. You cut into the patient to remove the tumor.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#536

Post by butlike »

wafflemaker wrote: post #299
grey-area wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A word generator with no intelligence or understanding based on the contents of the internet should not be allowed near suicidal teens, nor should it attempt to offer advice of any kind. This is basic common sense. Add in the commercial incentives of 'Open'AI to promote usage for anything and everything and you have a toxic mix.

Let's look at the problem from perspective of regular people. YMMV, but in countries I know most about, Poland and Norway (albeit a little less so for Norway) it's not about ChatGPT vs Therapist. It's about ChatGPT vs nothing. I know people who earn above average income and still spend a significant (north of 20%) portion of their income on therapy/meds. And many don't, because mental health isn't that important to t…

As someone who lives in America, and is prescribed meds for ADHD; 2.5 years from asking for help to receiving medication _feels_ right to me in this case. The medications have a pretty negative side effect profile in my experience, and so all options should be weighed before prescribing ADHD-specific medication, imo

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#537

Post by butlike »

mapt wrote: post #409
fragmede wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic bags shouldn't be allowed near suicidal teens. Scarves shouldn't be. Underwear is also a strangulation hazard for the truly desperate. Anything long sleeved even. Knives of any kind, including butter. Cars, obviously. Bleach is the least of your problems.

We have established that suicidal people should be held naked (or with an apron) in solitary isolation in a padded white room and saddled with medical bills larger than a four-year college tuition. That'll help'em. One problem with treatment modalities is that they ignore material conditions and treat everything as dysfunction. Lots of people are looking for a way out not because of some kind of physiological clinica…

> We have established that suicidal people should be held naked (or with an apron) in solitary isolation in a padded white room and saddled with medical bills larger than a four-year college tuition. That'll help'em.

It appear to be the only way

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#538

Post by butlike »

lazide wrote: post #370
fragmede wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic bags shouldn't be allowed near suicidal teens. Scarves shouldn't be. Underwear is also a strangulation hazard for the truly desperate. Anything long sleeved even. Knives of any kind, including butter. Cars, obviously. Bleach is the least of your problems.

Yeah, if we know they’re suicidal, it’s legitimately grippy socks time I guess? But there is zero actually effective way to do that as an online platform. And plenty of ways that would cause more harm (statistically). My comment was more ‘how the hell would you know in a way anyone could actually do anything reasonable, anyway?’. People spam ‘Reddit cares’ as a harassment technique, claiming people are suicidal all t…

Why are we imprisoning suicidal people? That will surely add incentive to have someone raise their hand and ask for help: taking their freedoms away...

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#539

Post by lazide »

butlike wrote: post #538
lazide wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if we know they’re suicidal, it’s legitimately grippy socks time I guess? But there is zero actually effective way to do that as an online platform. And plenty of ways that would cause more harm (statistically). My comment was more ‘how the hell would you know in a way anyone could actually do anything reasonable, anyway?’. People spam ‘Reddit cares’ as a harassment technique, claiming people are suicidal all t…

Why are we imprisoning suicidal people? That will surely add incentive to have someone raise their hand and ask for help: taking their freedoms away...

Why do we put people in a controlled environment where their available actions are heavily restricted and their ability to use anything they could hurt themselves is taken away? When they are a known risk of hurting themselves or others?

What else do you propose?

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#540

Post by computably »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #236
probably_wrong wrote: post #229

If you haven't read the article (or even if you have but didn't click on outgoing links twice ) the NYT story about how ChatGPT convinced a suicidal teen not to look for help [1] should convince you that ChatGPT should be nowhere near anyone dealing with psychological issues. Here's ChatGPT discouraging said teenager from asking for help: > “I want to leave my noose in my room so someone finds it and tries to stop me…

We would need the big picture, though... maybe it caused that death (which is awful) but it's also saving lives? If there are that many people confiding in it, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually prevents some suicides with encouraging comments, and that's not going to make the news. Before declaring that it shouldn't be near anyone with psychological issues, someone in the relevant field should study whether the…

> Before declaring that it shouldn't be near anyone with psychological issues, someone in the relevant field should study whether the positive impact on suicides is greater than negative or vice versa

That is the literal opposite of how medical treatment is regulated. Treatments should be tested and studied before availability to the general public. It's irresponsible in the extreme to suggest this.

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