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French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

bbc.com

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Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#531

Post by aj_hackman »

nailer wrote: post #519
aj_hackman wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a deliberate effort to neutralize my statement as much as possible. We could argue on this issue, but what we can't disagree on is the fact that there's an issue (which is all that's relevant to the point I was trying to make).

Sure but the public pressure “against the IDF” was manufactured. That’s an important point and relevant to the current discussion.

I was attempting to invoke Hanlon's Razor to rationalize the narratives being disseminated by news media, because I am exhausted by conspiratorial thinking. I chose the phrasing that I did in an effort to be as charitable as possible to both sides. I will not be badgered into wasting my time on an embarrassing and fruitless political debate on this orange website or any other.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#532

Post by IMTDb »

adev_ wrote: post #418
IMTDb wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting that members of the second system had his picture pinned on a wall called "The wall of the assholes"[1] amongst other political and public servant they did not like. They still claim they are totally independent and impartial when judging any of these figures. [1] (French Wikipedia article about the affair) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_du_%C2%AB_Mur_des_cons...

> It's also worth noting that members of the second system Nope. This picture was found in the office of an Union related to "magistrats". Magistrats is a broad term that also include Procureurs, Judges but also some Lawyers. The union is not specifically associated to the position of "Juge d'instruction" by any means. But yes, generally speaking Politicians do not like Magistrats and Magistrats do not like politicia…

> Magistrats is a broad term that also include Procureurs, Judges but also some Lawyers.

The also is key: "Juge d'instructions" absolutely are "Magistrats" - just like Procureurs, etc are. Some of those "Juge d'instructions" are part of this union who put a target on the back of some politicians. How can they claim with a straight face that they are not biased ?

Either they know it's bullshit and they are simply lying; or they really believe their claims and they are just delusional. I don't know which one I prefer.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#533

Post by mk89 »

This is one of the greatest news I have heard of in the last 20 years or so.

More of that, please.

Politicians responsible for starting a war, bombing a country, causing a lot of our current issues (e.g., with illegal migration flows) for purely personal interests and nothing more than that should be in jail. He will not, of course, spend more than 3-4 weeks there, but who cares. Better than noting.

Also, the French people deserve better than this joke of a president.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#534

Post by [deleted] »

mk89 wrote: post #533

This is one of the greatest news I have heard of in the last 20 years or so. More of that, please. Politicians responsible for starting a war, bombing a country, causing a lot of our current issues (e.g., with illegal migration flows) for purely personal interests and nothing more than that should be in jail. He will not, of course, spend more than 3-4 weeks there, but who cares. Better than noting. Also, the French…

[deleted]

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#535

Post by mk89 »

Aurornis wrote: post #216
greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

> Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. How much of this is driven by contrarian and counter-cyclical reporting? I’m not familiar with French media, but I see the same pattern in every country where I’ve kept up with the news: Media starts being favorable to a topic when it’s up and coming, switching to being highly…

It's not always to gain views, because you can often see that the relative directors/presidents of such media companies openly support certain types of people. The way I see it, especially lately in Germany, is really about elections and politics. Even a stupid article can lead to "i will vote for xyz" in no time.

I would agree with you if media didn't have a direction, but in many cases they do.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#536

Post by pm3003 »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #276
Aurornis wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. How much of this is driven by contrarian and counter-cyclical reporting? I’m not familiar with French media, but I see the same pattern in every country where I’ve kept up with the news: Media starts being favorable to a topic when it’s up and coming, switching to being highly…

French media are owned by his literal relatives, one (Bouygues, owner of the largest French /media? With TF1 etc.) being the witness of one of his wedding and godfather of his son Louis. The other son is married to the heir of Darty/FNAC. I don't remember where Dassault (major newspaper owner) fits but they were both close as well.

Pierre Fabre (big pharma) associated with the Dassault family used to have a big share in Valmonde, the owner of Valeurs Actuelles, and Olivier Dassault was for a time the lead editorialist (lead op-ed writer). Valeurs Actuelles used to be very traditionally conservative (vaguely associated with a conservative rural party) in the 1970s, then moderate right-of-center.

Olivier Dassault turned it into one of the main supports of Nicolas Sarkozy starting 2005 or 2006 for his successful presidency campaign in 2007 until 2014.

After the Sarkozy and Hollande eras Valeurs Actuelles turned far-right. Eric Zemmour, a publicist-turned-politician, used to write for Valeurs Actuelles. It is financially in the hands of the French-Lebanese Safa family.

I used to read their monthly magazine "Le Spectacle du Monde" which was at the time much less political. It is now independent, headed by an elderly diplomat and collaborator to former president Jacques Chirac.

Ragrding Sarkozy, you also forgot his close relationships with the late Lagardère father (biggest French media mogul in the 1990s) and with André Bettencourt and his window (L'Oréal, richest person in France in the 2000s). Despite his being in jail, Sarkozy remains administrator of the Lagardère trust.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#537

Post by pm3003 »

keane wrote: post #436
neves wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Le Monde Diplomatique?

In April 2024, Le Monde Group’s majority stakeholder became a financial endowment, or fonds de dotation (FDD), named Fonds pour l'indépendance de la presse. En: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/about-us/article/2023/09/24/two-ma... Fr: https://www.lemonde.fr/actualite-medias/article/2023/09/24/d... This was the result of journalist demands, covered here: https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/le_monde_daniel_kretinsk... This s…

Le Monde Diplomatique is a far-left (but rather intellectual) newspaper, completely separate from Le Monde.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#539

Post by guizmo »

ajnin wrote: post #94
catwell wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way more complicated than this. First, this is mostly about things that happened before his election. The tribunal ruled he did not personally benefit, and he did not directly solicit money to finance his campaign either. However, some of his closest allies (who would become his ministers later) did the latter. The tribunal could not find any direct proof he was involved but ruled there were enough "converging i…

This is disinformation. The tribunal didn't rule he didn't personally benefit. It ruled that he conspired to corrupt the leaders of Lybia to steal money from the Lybian people and fund his electoral campaign. In my book becoming president of France is certainly a "personal benefit". There are numerous factual evidence, documents from Lybia, fund transfers, secret meetings of his closest friends with Abdullah Senussi,…

I read that the ruling mention that they couldn't prove the money was used for the campaign and that the conviction is all about the participation in the conspiration you mention.

To be honest, what I would want to know is if he sent us to war in Libya to hide his crimes. That would be the real evil to me.

Getting him to jail for asking someone for campaign money really gives a weird feeling in that sense.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#540

Post by guizmo »

motorest wrote: post #65
mytailorisrich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to say. Even if indeed guilty, things like jailing him "provisionally" despite his appeal are discretionary decisions of the court so also open to all interpretations despite the very black and white comments here...

> Even if indeed guilty, things like jailing him "provisionally" despite his appeal are discretionary decisions of the court so also open to all interpretations depiste the very black and white comments here... I read it the other way around. You're arguing for preferencial treatment on the ground that any inconvenience could be misconstrued as politically motivated. In the meantime you're seeing a case involving org…

Not jailing him before the appeal would not be preferential treatment for someone without risk of re-offense or flight.
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