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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#531

Post by lazyasciiart »

anothereng wrote: post #218
mcdonje wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He was Catholic, and wouldn't do assisted suicide. I thought Jain the perspective shared in this comment is valuable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548178 Well, not just the comment, but also the wikipedia article linked to in the comment. Obviously, Jainism isn't Catholicism, but this part of the wikipedia article got me thinking: >It is not considered a suicide by Jain scholars because it is not an act of…

No, it will always be wrong to kill an innocent person whether that is yourself or another doesn't matter. Our lives are lent to us by God

And that is why you should never risk your life to save anyone else, right?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#532

Post by lazyasciiart »

thrance wrote: post #129
sarchertech wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the problem. If there’s a financial incentive people will find way to push it. That’s my biggest concern about assisted suicide for an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid the inevitable decline (as in this case). There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this. The only way I can see to remove that would be to require that your estate can’t go to anyone who potentially…

Yet you don't see insurance companies hiring snipers to get rid of their oldest customers. Maybe the solution is to prosecute those who would push MAID too aggressively as we would those who push to suicide.

Their most expensive customers are not the oldest ones, it’s the ones getting targeted genetic treatment for cancer denied. They don’t need snipers: the patient dies for lack of treatment being paid for.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#533

Post by lazyasciiart »

xpe wrote: post #50
mkagenius wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally thought some unpublished book. But you shouldn't have doubled down on 'next'. Your first para was enough.

[flagged]

> this all-too-common tendency for people to think "the way I see things is obvious and/or definitive“

You are an excellent poster child for this tendency in this thread.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#534

Post by ipaddr »

prmoustache wrote: post #327
ipaddr wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 years living vs dying is a 3 year net improvement on life. Such silly statement. By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.

I've known at least 2 old persons who were literally looking forward to their death because of chronic pain and general boredom and frustration of requiring 24h/7 assistance and not being able to live the way they used to. They would have likely used assisted suicide if it had been an option back then.

In this case man doesn't want to die but others are suggesting it to make it easier on society.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#535

Post by ipaddr »

hannofcart wrote: post #361
ipaddr wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 years living vs dying is a 3 year net improvement on life. Such silly statement. By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.

On the contrary, I urge you to consider whether it is your statement that is overly dismissive. Is there perhaps some existing conditioning, maybe in the form of religious upbringing that is driving your reaction to this? Many of us in fact find OP's a very thoughtful comment than a "silly statement". > By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak. No, they suggested that the old and ailing whose quality of li…

They are suggesting a man who is making life hard on others should die for society which I think is wrong. No one is saying that those who choose to die shouldn't have that choice rather it's not society who should be making the choice.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#536

Post by ipaddr »

anigbrowl wrote: post #421
ipaddr wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 years living vs dying is a 3 year net improvement on life. Such silly statement. By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.

That's literally a one-dimensional analysis. Are you sure you're not missing any other relevant factors?I find it hard to believe you uncritically think 'more = better' in every context.

More doesn't equal better but it is no one choice but the person. Not society or the medical system assigning a quality of life score.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#537

Post by ipaddr »

mynameisash wrote: post #247
ipaddr wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Live your life for you not for others opinions which are fleeting anyways.

How would you square building and maintaining flourishing relationships if you don't care for others?

You can care for others while not being weighed down by someone elses expectations.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#538

Post by braza »

I'm totally in favor of assisted suicide, and I think it's a good mechanism for those suffering, if voluntarily chosen.

That said, I think the same, and there are some non-obvious second-order effects around it being the menu, especially regarding life extension incentives and if people started to feel guilt-tripped by it.

The first thing that comes to mind is a reduction in commitment to the elderly. As soon as health care costs ramp up, people will start to make more decisions based on the economic aspect of the people's support instead of thinking in life extension mechanisms as a natural first choice.

Second, it is related to the public health services. From my experience in some parts of EU/America, if you have a disease until your 50s, you will get treatment. However, after that, there are probably some parts of the public/private health system that throttle down the treatments.

The 2-week interval between a return if you are 30s/40s, will become 6 weeks if you are over 60s.

The next one, the "inheritance social contract," will be changed. As long as folks know that assisted suicide will be placed on the menu, I do not doubt that folks terrified with the possibility of loved ones "not doing enough to keep them alive" will dilute everyone who lifts the gas.

And as a second-order, I can see the securitization and life insurance industry will demand insane premiums to cover elderly persons, given that potentially people can lift and coast the treatment for their loved ones, and this can break part of their actuarial models, which, yes, expect people to exhaust resources to keep their elderly alive and not to choose together to pull the plug in a single-digit number of years before.

And maybe a third-order effect (in Germany there are some cases) where people with resources (single-digit million real estate + assets) exercise liquidity on it and live the best of their lives after 70 or in some cases, legally marry 30+ nurses to take care of them in the last 3 years and offer a chunk of inheritance, post-death pension, or insurance premium.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#539

Post by [deleted] »

Noaidi wrote: post #506
robotresearcher wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord, we have very different interpretations of ‘burden’. I had healthy, happy, typical children that I loved to bits and they were absolutely a burden! Some days I could barely deal. Acknowledging that the things you love are a huge pain in the ass sometimes and keeping on loving them is perfectly healthy.

A burden is a heavy load. The stronger you are the less things are a burden to you. In this case, if you are more spiritually strong you are, the fewer burdens you will have.

[deleted]

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#540

Post by rkomorn »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #530
rkomorn wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but this feels kind of specious. Especially if the person has already admitted to trying to commit suicide (which they presumably did considering the context from parent comment).

No, it isn’t. People who have attempted suicide are often very closely monitored by family/caregivers/medical professionals for whether they are going to attempt again, for years, and can be subject to significant constraints if they give any indications that they are thinking that way.

Sure, but the comment of was about the illegality of suicide and the resulting jeopardy causing people who attempted suicide to say they didn't wish it had worked on a documentary about suicide (and presumably skewing the "stats").

I don't think that's the same as what you're describing.

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