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Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

riksbank.se

531–540 of 581 posts

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#531
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly like that most likely, I am old enough to remember those machines where credit cards left their mark on the receipt, that is why their numbers are higher than the card. Here, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter

Had a taxi driver in Melbourne who used one of those to take me to the airport in 2009 Gave me a bit of a surprise when he cashed in the paper copy two years later and I hadn't been to Australia since...

They where supposed to do it quicker.

I think there was a limit of something like 60 days. At least my bank apparently refused all transactions that were settled too late.

I had a job which involved a lot of taxi trips, and when I cross checked 30% of the trips where never charged my account. I suppose they just filled up the glove box with old slips until they couldn't shut it. Hotels never failed.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#532
post #498
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them. Theres still a very good reason to use them - buyer protection. I use a Virgin Atlantic reward card and have it set to pay off automatically, never running up debt. It both protects me as a buyer, and has the benefit of taking ~£500 off annual family holidays, and gives me a free companion seat in the process, effectively halving…

I am not sure what you mean by "buyer protection" but if it's chargeback then it's doable on debit cards too.

If you purchase an item on credit, it's the bank that makes the purchase. You then pay them back, 30 or 60 (or more) days later.

If there's a problem with the item, you can "return" it to the bank — after all, they own it! So in practise you can ask the shop for a refund, or you can ask the bank.

It is a stronger protection than a debit card chargeback.

As an example, I bought flight tickets from an obscure budget airline on a credit card. Months later, beyond the usual debit chargeback time limit, the airline went bankrupt — but my bank purchased that service, and isn't going to provide it! They refund immediately.

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/our-expertise/cards/chargeback-...

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#533
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of them? As long as eventually the connection is restored and the transaction can propagate over the network.

The point of the ledger is to prevent double-spending. Offline payment specifically allows double-spending. If you have offline payment, you don't need a ledger at all; you can just use PGP.

Those transactions simply won't be accepted. Sucks for the seller, but how to deal with that mess is an issue that has to be solved on an upper layer by ToS or laws.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there people that like cheques? They are no longer a thing in New Zealand. It seems like something no-one would miss.

Are there people that like cheques? For no good reason, I keep a list of why I use checks (in the U.S.): - Charitable donations because charities maximize every penny, and electronic contributions eat into that - Paying the accountant - Good accountants make every penny count, and aren't interested in paying credit card overhead. - Tipping the paperboy at Christmas - Tipping the doorman at Christmas - Business licens…

> Charitable donations because charities maximize every penny, and electronic contributions eat into that

Charities in Europe very much want an electronic donation, since the cost is far less than handling either cash or cheques. More importantly (I think), it also gives them much more opportunity to get a recurring donation.

Example UK prices (since cheques still exist there)

- Depositing cash, 70p per £100 deposited.

- Depositing cheque, 60p per cheque.

- Receiving one-off electronic payment, 10p.

- Receiving a recurring electronic payment, 4p.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I am Australian and we have a similar adoption rate of cashless payments. If a merchant tries to promote cash options I immediately think they’re doing it for tax evasion reasons - not because of the touted reason that “card payments cost more to process” (they don’t once you factor in the cost of handling cash).

Here is likely not that much handling cost for an independent hairdresser just earning their own (quite meager) salary. In the EU you can not charge a card fee on consumer transactions, so the merchant has the eat the cost. If your revenue is - 2-3000 Eur a month, payment fees (and terminal subscription fees) can have a big impact.

I, as a private individual, can accept card payments for 1.69%. I have a physical chip and pin reader (that pairs with my phone), it cost me £25, but I can take contactless payments using just my phone. If I didn't want to use my phone, I'd need the £75 reader that comes with a 4G connection (at no extra transaction or subscription cost).

If I were charging £3k/month, I'd be just above the threshold where paying £19.99/month to get a transaction fee of 0.99% saves money overall.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#536
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them. Theres still a very good reason to use them - buyer protection. I use a Virgin Atlantic reward card and have it set to pay off automatically, never running up debt. It both protects me as a buyer, and has the benefit of taking ~£500 off annual family holidays, and gives me a free companion seat in the process, effectively halving…

>has the benefit of taking ~£500 off annual family holidays, and gives me a free companion seat in the process, effectively halving the price for one of the passengers. You know you're paying higher sticker prices to finance that, right?

If I am then so is every other traveler with every single airline in the world.

Go on Virgin Atlantics site, search for any flight, you can then apply points to that, or redeem a companion voucher. That doesn't bump the price up prior to redemption.

I dont "pay" for the points I get, as I'm not spending any extra day to day. The credit card is free.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#537
post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

> It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder.

Considering that the card has memory on it, you can store there how much balance you have when you do an online payment. The bank can send back your available balance, so you cannot spend offline more than you have.

I can't think about anything simpler than this.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#538
post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

> It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. Considering that the card has memory on it, you can store there how much balance you have when you do an online payment. The bank can send back your available balance, so you cannot spend offline more than you have. I can't think about anything simpler than this.

Unless money has been withdrawn from the account connected to the card after the card was last online.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#539
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes EMV chips and the EMV standard are secure elements that were spec’d and have been manufactured since the 80s. The EU has been using these thing pretty much universally since the late 90s. They’ve also supported offline transactions that entire time. Indeed offline transactions was the norm for a long time because internet connections were expensive. So payment terminals did offline transactions, then literally ph…

EMV has been using asymmetric cryptography for a long time now, even though it's strictly optional in the specs. Older cards indeed didn't have it for cost reasons, and online-only cards theoretically have no strict need for it even today, but practically, a symmetric-only card is a non-starter these days for several reasons. You won't be able to ride the Tube in London or Subway in NYC with a card that does not supp…

> You won't be able to ride the Tube in London or Subway in NYC with a card that does not support it, for example.

Those systems all perform online auths at the gate, they don’t rely on offline transactions at all.

Asymmetric encryption is used to prove the identity of the card itself, I.e. prove it’s a real card owned by a real issuer. But it’s not used to sign the transaction itself.

Transaction cryptograms, the cryptographic blob that’s built using data like transaction amounts, method of customer authentication etc only use symmetric encryption. The produced cryptogram itself is then also signed using an asymmetric key, but the asymmetric and symmetric blobs are distinct entities and processes separately by the card network.

Now this is the really important, and completely non-obvious part. Only the symmetrically encrypted transaction cryptogram is sent over the card network to the issuer. All of the asymmetric parts are only used locally by the terminal for validation, then thrown away. So the data produced by the card that is actually stored and eventually sent to the issuer can’t be used for cryptographic non-repudiation, because there’s no mechanism for the merchant to prove using only the transaction cryptogram, and public keys, that a specific transaction was signed by a specific card issued by a specific issuer.

This may seem very strange from a technical perspective, but only because people think that the technical elements of card networks is what prevents fraud. In reality fraud, at least between network participants, is entirely prevented using legal contracts, escrow accounts, and the simple fact that the benefit of abusing the technical measures to commit fraud is simply not worth the consequences. Being a network participant requires you to put millions of dollars in escrow, and be a large enough company that you can realistically move millions of dollars in transactions everyday. Fraud between companies at that level is solved using very expensive lawyers, the technical measures only need to provide enough evidence of tampering to stand up in a court of law, where everyone is under oath, and at risk of personal repercussions for perjury. There is no need for them to be completely fool proof, it’s much easier to just depose the engineers who were ordered to circumvent the technical controls, under threat of prison time, than it is to get every network participant to adopt some complex cryptographic non-repudiation scheme to protect against scenarios that don’t actually occur in reality.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them. If you need credit, there are credit options with much lower rates than what credit cards offer. And the reason credit card benefits suck is due to european interchange fee caps and regulation.

Multiple reports have shown merchants are raising the costs for all consumers to cover the credit card accepting costs. I really hope you're getting paid to pretend to be this gullible to the most basic of the credit-card companies schemes.

Well that’s why we need the digital euro, so we can stop sending billions overseas to Mastercard and Visa
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