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Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

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Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#531

Post by infecto »

Kinrany wrote: post #523
infecto wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government were coercing Mastercard into censorship, that would be a free speech issue. But absent state pressure, a private company choosing not to do business with certain content isn’t censorship in the constitutional sense. That’s just market behavior. If you want to challenge the influence of financial infrastructure on speech, that’s a separate (and valid) policy debate but it’s not a First Amendment vio…

It's a free speech issue if the government _can_ pressure Mastercard and, separately, Mastercard _can_ act as a censor. That government isn't using this ability in this particular instance is no more of a consolation than if there was a law that permitted censorship but was not used for that or enforced in practice. Severing either of these two links would be enough though.

You’re shifting from a First Amendment claim to a broader “potential for abuse” argument. That’s fine, but let’s be precise.

1. Government pressure only triggers a First Amendment issue when it’s actual, not hypothetical. Courts require clear state action or coercion.

2. Mastercard acting on its own isn’t censorship in the legal sense, it’s a private company making content-moderation decisions. You may not like that power, but it’s not unconstitutional.

If you want structural reforms, like regulating payment networks as common carriers, that’s a policy question, not a current free speech violation.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#532

Post by eastbound »

Shank wrote: post #91
petcat wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely a lot of links in this chain. Maybe leafo can chime-in and say exactly what happened with Itch.io. But I suspect that someone downstream of Visa/Mastercard anticipated that the payment card companies would not permit the transactions and relayed that back up to the merchants, and they shut it off preemptively. But it's hard to say. Mastercard is now saying that they never said or did anything. So…

> But I suspect that someone downstream of Visa/Mastercard anticipated that the payment card companies would not permit the transactions and relayed that back up to the merchants, and they shut it off preemptively. It sure is tragic that benevolent and majestic Mastercard is having their name thrown into the mud over this. Coincidentally, it sure is convenient that they have a number of middleman scapegoats who can t…

All Mastercard has to do is say “We ordered payment processors to let Valve sell their games”. It is sure convenient that they stop at “We didn’t say the opposite.”

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#533

Post by Rodmine »

digitalsushi wrote: post #240
Rodmine wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

why cant we? are you self-censoring because there's some policy forbidding us to talk about something clandestine here? i dont have access to the joke, or inside club, or inner sanctum, and maybe theres other people like me that want to know more and if the mystery is self-imposed then i might respectfully push back that we cant talk about it

Even this comment of mine has already been downvoted and flagged. Makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#534

Post by IshKebab »

WolfRazu wrote: post #80
IshKebab wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that help? Then MasterCard would drop them directly.

Well in this case MasterCard is claiming it wasn't them, but their intermediary.

Sure but also in this case MasterCard are clearly full of shit.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#535

Post by yupyupyups »

russelg wrote: post #361
yupyupyups wrote: post #305

[flagged]

First they came for etc

This issue should not be brought up on the basis of them denying service to selling, not just porn, but some of the most extreme types of porn. Because this content is something harmful and immoral, there is not any moral obligation even for a duopoly to serve their sale.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#536

Post by Maken »

giantg2 wrote: post #530
Maken wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This so much. The problem here is not the content that was blocked, it's the completely unaccountable process that was used to block content worldwide bypassing any legal protection.

Steam Direct didn't update their policy on game content from what I see. Doesn't looked like Steam fought back. Seems as though Steam has never supported games with rape, incest, child exploitation, etc.

So what? Steam simply didn't want to start a fight with its payment providers over some niche content. The problem is that this incident has proven it's possible to ban whatever content you want, globally, by pressuring middle management in Mastercard and Visa.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#537

Post by docmars »

notatoad wrote: post #495
btown wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the goalposts shift to: “This isn’t for reputational risk, it’s because we consider fraud more likely for this type of industry, and we are within our rights to take a proactive approach to fraud.” And there is no requirement that they disclose the reasons for that decision. Don’t get me wrong: it’s progress. But it’s far from a panacea.

i think that sounds like a perfectly fine compromise - choosing not to provide services that are an especially high risk of fraud should be within their rights. it just means that they could be forced to defend those decisions in court, which is good and exactly the sort of thing that courts are supposed to decide.

This sounds great on paper, but what incentive does Valve have fighting for a game listing with only 100 players?

I get the feeling many companies would find it easier to allow payment processors to censor something if the product isn't earning them much anyway.

"That's one of our least popular items we sell so honestly we don't really care..."

Which is within the right for the reseller to decide, but it does nothing for protecting access to a product that's otherwise only available on a select few digital storefronts.

Then it becomes an issue for the game studio, who may not have the funding to fight a case to remain available. And then you have a situation where the game studio has become a victim of a payment processor's conspiracy theory that they're tied to fraud.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#538

Post by carstenhag »

socalgal2 wrote: post #462
weberer wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was Mastercard's rule, but any one of the companies in the payment network could have brought it up to Valve. The whole system is set up so one transaction has to go through up to 6 different companies, and they all have to abide by each other's rules. The US Internet Preservation Society explained it recently: >Each of these companies maintains its own terms of service and each of them can block a transaction by…

I'd be interesting to know if Valve is big enough to start their own payment system. Yea, I know it would be hard but their customers have libraries of games in their system and Valve has lots of good will. Valve could also offer discounts ($X off if you use ValvePay). It would take years. They'd have to drop the adult games now, start ValvePay, promote it until the majority of their customers used it. Then put the g…

Simpler: why can't I buy nsfw games with a regular dumb bank transaction (SEPA €) in my case?

If MasterCard/Visa don't want these transactions, stupid, their loss. But at least let me use a payment method that works & doesn't have these morale restrictions?

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#539

Post by IanCal »

simion314 wrote: post #493
IanCal wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the whole comment because that statement is not an excuse, it is simply a nod to how it differs from other payments. The rest of the comment explains why I think the situation arises like this. It really isn’t hard to read so try and if you think your understanding clashes with my explanation of my comment feel free to assume I’m bad at making a point and read it in good faith. I clearly don’t understand your is…

I will respectfully disagree, I can't see your comment on topic. you said "The only thing that impacts this really is chargebacks, which iiuc are much more common with adult stuff." and this is something claimed about porn sites but explain how this applies to Steam or GOG, please explain clarly or admit it does not apply.

It’s not about chargebacks. If you can’t understand that from the comment and my followups I’m not able to explain it clearly enough for you and we should end it here, have a nice night.

Re: Mastercard deflects blame for NSFW games being taken down

#540

Post by infecto »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #274
infecto wrote: post #150

[flagged]

> 1) not antagonizing regulators with extreme content Who is this regulator that's going to care that Visa and Mastercard are processing payments for porn?

You make it sound a lot easier than what is really happening. It’s not that it’s porn, it’s what type of porn. This applies globally but let’s say we are only focused on the US only, it’s possible depending on how extreme of the material to have oversight by local or federal governments. This is a definite consideration when Visa is making their guidelines, you think they has a business care? Nope, it’s purely to satiate the external parties.
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