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LLM Inevitabilism

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Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#531

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

bbor wrote: post #511
alonsonic wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused with your second point. LLM companies are not making any money from current models? Openai generates 10b USD ARR and has 100M MAUs. Yes they are running at a loss right now but that's because they are racing to improve models. If they stopped today to focus on optimization of their current models to minimize operating cost and monetizing their massive user base you think they don't have a successful busi…

It’s just the natural counterpart to dogmatic inevitabilism — dogmatic denialism. One denies the present, the other the (recent) past. It’s honestly an understandable PoV though when you consider A) most people understand “AI” and “chatbot” to be synonyms, and B) the blockchain hype cycle(s) bred some deep cynicism about software innovation. Funny seeing that comment on this post in particular, tho. When OP says “I’m…

> most people understand “AI” and “chatbot” to be synonyms

This might be true (or not), but for sure not on this site.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#532

Post by apwell23 »

lordnacho wrote: post #524
alonsonic wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused with your second point. LLM companies are not making any money from current models? Openai generates 10b USD ARR and has 100M MAUs. Yes they are running at a loss right now but that's because they are racing to improve models. If they stopped today to focus on optimization of their current models to minimize operating cost and monetizing their massive user base you think they don't have a successful busi…

Are you saying they'd be profitable if they didn't pour all the winnings into research? From where I'm standing, the models are useful as is. If Claude stopped improving today, I would still find use for it. Well worth 4 figures a year IMO.

> Well worth 4 figures a year IMO

only because software engineering pay hasn't adjusted down for the new reality . You don't know what its worth yet.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#533

Post by digianarchist »

strangescript wrote: post #498
lsy wrote: post #63

I think two things can be true simultaneously: 1. LLMs are a new technology and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle with that. It's difficult to imagine a future where they don't continue to exist in some form, with all the timesaving benefits and social issues that come with them. 2. Almost three years in, companies investing in LLMs have not yet discovered a business model that justifies the massive expen…

I think the difference between all previous technologies is scope. If you make a super sonic jet that gets people from place A to place B faster for more money, but the target consumer is like "yeah, I don't care that much about that at that price point", then your tech sort is of dead. You are also fully innovated on that product, like maybe you can make it more fuel efficient, sure, but your scope is narrow. AI is…

It's not a great analogy. The only parallel with Concorde is energy consumption. I think a better analogy would have been VR.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#534

Post by ghc »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #529
alonsonic wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused with your second point. LLM companies are not making any money from current models? Openai generates 10b USD ARR and has 100M MAUs. Yes they are running at a loss right now but that's because they are racing to improve models. If they stopped today to focus on optimization of their current models to minimize operating cost and monetizing their massive user base you think they don't have a successful busi…

> If they stopped today to focus on optimization of their current models to minimize operating cost and monetizing their user base you think they don't have a successful business model? Actually, I'd be very curious to know this. Because we already have a few relatively capable models that I can run on my MBP with 128 GB of RAM (and a few less capable models I can run much faster on my 5090). In order to break even t…

> In order to break even they would have to minimize the operating costs (by throttling, maiming models etc.) and/or increase prices. This would be the reality check.

Is that true? Are they operating inference at a loss or are they incurring losses entirely on R&D? I guess we'll probably never know, but I wouldn't take as a given that inference is operating at a loss.

I found this: https://semianalysis.com/2023/02/09/the-inference-cost-of-se...

which estimates that it costs $250M/year to operate ChatGPT. If even remotely true $10B in revenue on $250M of COGS would be a great business.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#535

Post by jowea »

usrbinbash wrote: post #510
Workaccount2 wrote: post #495

People like communicating in natural language. LLMs are the first step in the movement away from the "early days" of computing where you needed to learn the logic based language and interface of computers to interact with them. That is where the inevitabilism comes from. No one* wants to learn how to use a computer, they want it to be another entity that they can just talk to. *I'm rounding off the <5% who deeply lov…

> No one* wants to learn how to use a computer, they want it to be another entity that they can just talk to. No, we don't. Part of the reason why I enjoy programming, is because it is a mental exercise allowing me to give precise, unambiguous instructions that either work exactly as advertised or they do not.

Exactly, we are in the *, the 5% (and I think that's an overestimate) who actually like it. Seems tech is at least partly moving on.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#536

Post by aldousd666 »

AI is the future, I don't care who is dubious of it. LLMs in their Transformer variations may not survive the long run, but LLMs are not the whole of AI. lets do keep in mind that today's limitations become yesterdays speed bumps. Perhaps there's a new architecture or a tweak to the existing one that gets us the rest of the way there. There has never been this rapid of a dislocation in capital investment that didn't make a big dent in the long run. You can swear up and down that it may not happen, but do you think all of these companies, and now countries, are going to just take a hit and let it go? No friggin way. It's AT LEAST as prevalent as nuclear was, but I'd argue more since you can't run nukes on your laptop. The other thing about AI is that it can be used to different degrees in tech. you can't incorporate half of a supersonic jet's supersonic-ness into something that is less than supersonic. You can incorporate partial AI solutions that still mix with human control. The mixture will evolve over time to an optimal balance. whether that is more AI and less humans or vice versa remains to be seen.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#537

Post by jsnell »

lordnacho wrote: post #524
alonsonic wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused with your second point. LLM companies are not making any money from current models? Openai generates 10b USD ARR and has 100M MAUs. Yes they are running at a loss right now but that's because they are racing to improve models. If they stopped today to focus on optimization of their current models to minimize operating cost and monetizing their massive user base you think they don't have a successful busi…

Are you saying they'd be profitable if they didn't pour all the winnings into research? From where I'm standing, the models are useful as is. If Claude stopped improving today, I would still find use for it. Well worth 4 figures a year IMO.

They'd be profitable if they showed ads to their free tier users. They wouldn't even need to be particularly competent at targeting or aggressive with the amount of ads they show, they'd be profitable with 1/10th the ARPU of Meta or Google.

And they would not be incompetent at targeting. If they were to use the chat history for targeting, they might have the most valuable ad targeting data sets ever built.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#538

Post by dbalatero »

alonsonic wrote: post #505
lsy wrote: post #63

I think two things can be true simultaneously: 1. LLMs are a new technology and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle with that. It's difficult to imagine a future where they don't continue to exist in some form, with all the timesaving benefits and social issues that come with them. 2. Almost three years in, companies investing in LLMs have not yet discovered a business model that justifies the massive expen…

I'm confused with your second point. LLM companies are not making any money from current models? Openai generates 10b USD ARR and has 100M MAUs. Yes they are running at a loss right now but that's because they are racing to improve models. If they stopped today to focus on optimization of their current models to minimize operating cost and monetizing their massive user base you think they don't have a successful busi…

They might generate 10b ARR, but they lose a lot more than that. Their paid users are a fraction of the free riders.

https://www.wheresyoured.at/openai-is-a-systemic-risk-to-the...

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#539

Post by karmakaze »

> "AI ..."

> I’m not convinced that LLMs are the future.

Was this an intentional bait/switch? LLM != AI.

I'm quite sure LLMs are not the future. It's merely the step after AlexNet, AlphaGo, and before the next major advancement.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#540

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

eric-burel wrote: post #133
lsy wrote: post #63

I think two things can be true simultaneously: 1. LLMs are a new technology and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle with that. It's difficult to imagine a future where they don't continue to exist in some form, with all the timesaving benefits and social issues that come with them. 2. Almost three years in, companies investing in LLMs have not yet discovered a business model that justifies the massive expen…

Developers haven't even started extracting the value of LLMs with agent architectures yet. Using an LLM UI like open ai is like we just figured fire and you use it to warm you hands (still impressive when you think about it, but not worth the burns), while LLM development is about building car engines (here is you return on investment).

> Developers haven't even started extracting the value of LLMs with agent architectures yet.

For sure there is a portion of developers who don't care about the future, are not interested in current developements and just live as before hoping nothing will change. But the rest already gave it a try and realized tools like Claude Code can give excellent results for small codebases to fail miserably at more complex tasks with the net result being negative as you get a codebase you don't understand, with many subtle bugs and inconsistencies created over a few days you will need weeks to discover and fix.

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