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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#531

Post by Jensson »

keyserj wrote: post #509
labster wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth is not the same as class, either. Even in America. A teacher with an annual salary of $60k is higher class than a plumber making $100k annually. Unless the teacher is black, of course, then racial elements of class come into play.

I agree that wealth is not the same as class, but just as a counter anecdote, my dad is a (small business) plumber and I never felt like we were treated less than any other middle class family. If anything, it seemed like people were often really grateful and giving random gifts like food from gardens or tickets to local events.

> If anything, it seemed like people were often really grateful and giving random gifts like food from gardens or tickets to local events.

If they didn't do that to other middle class families then they saw you as less than them. Seeing people as less comes both with charity and contempt, not just one of those.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#532

Post by foldr »

lmm wrote: post #523
foldr wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the Post Office doesn't have its own "law enforcement" (if you mean something like a police force) or its own judges. Any company has the right to bring a private prosecution under UK law, and this was the basis for the prosecutions in question. It just means that the company pays for some of the costs involved. Whether or not private prosecutions should be allowed is certainly a legitimate topic of discussion. L…

> Any company has the right to bring a private prosecution under UK law That's a simplification. The Post Office has a more privileged position due to its history; it has both formal access (e.g. to police computers) and informal deference from CPS that regular companies do not enjoy.

That’s true, but it’s unclear the extent to which any of that was a factor. For example, how was the Post Office’s access to the PNC relevant here?

It may be that the CPS would have taken over these prosecutions and dropped them if the company in question had been, say, Tesco. But I don’t see how we can be sure of this.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#533

Post by 9rx »

ionwake wrote: post #529
9rx wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CEO really is just another job, though. Perhaps you meant to say director? That is where the accountability lies, both practically and legally. CEO is the top of middle management, but still middle management all the same. The board and owners sit above that position, if you want to picture it as some kind of hierarchy, and are the driving leadership. They call the shots. The CEO has to answer to them. Perhaps what y…

Thanks for clarification I guess all higher ups should share

Why stop at higher ups? Even the bottom run worker has autonomy. They, while perhaps not to the same degree, take the lead and make important decisions too.

And how high up do you go? The common narrative is that the owners/board are the highest up, but in reality they're working for the customer. The customer is the true leader. It is they who make the decisions and who the owners/board have to answer to.

Or are they really the true leader? The customer will have customers of their own. Everyone works for someone. In reality, there isn't a hierarchy at all. It is approximately cyclical.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#534

Post by hermitcrab »

harvey9 wrote: post #521
hermitcrab wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK class is about your education, how you speak and who your parents are and, to a lesser extent, money. In the US I get the impression that it is much more about money. And therefore less static.

The money is implied by having parents who can afford your private school fees.

True. But it is possible to be not wealthy and still upper class. You can also be rich and lower class.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#535

Post by EliRivers »

IshKebab wrote: post #420
arranf wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide sources for your claim?

If you're looking for hard numbers on how many people shouldn't be getting them then you won't find it. Only the government has access to the details of individual claims. However you can infer a lot from a) the insane rise in claims, especially mental health related: https://obr.uk/docs/box-chart-3-f.png Has the mental health of the nation got twice as bad in 2 years? Obviously not. And b) whenever the BBC does touc…

Has the mental health of the nation got twice as bad in 2 years? Obviously not.

Assuming that's true, do we know if the new claims are fraudulent, or are they valid claims that people simply didn't claim for before?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#536

Post by hermitcrab »

immibis wrote: post #492
hermitcrab wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Internet is gradually destroying them economically. Google stole their lunch money. Unfortunately it is also destroying the broadsheet papers. I'm not sure any of them profitable now. And that means much less investigative journalism.

The Internet is giving tabloids wider reach with less printed paper

The Daily Mail has been quite successful at exporting it's own particular brand of nastiness online. Unfortunately.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#537

Post by rini17 »

akudha wrote: post #422
amiga386 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to have to pull you up on this detail, as you seem to care about the details. Fujitsu/ICL won the contract to develop and run Horizon. They got a commission on every EFTPOS sale. They paid for all the computers, all the network setup, all the staff training. They literally ran the helpline. If you were a sub-postmaster and had a problem with Horizon, you called Fujitsu. It was Fujitsu that then told you tha…

Fujistu is a business - they're gonna lie and do all kinds of shady things to maximize profits, avoid litigation etc. Nobody expects a big business to be ethical or even do only legal things at this point. It is the prosecutors conduct that is maddening here. They need to have higher standards - it is their job to prosecute actual criminal behavior, and not be lazy in fact checking

Should everyone expect (in many cases, reward) businesses to prioritize profits over human dignity?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#538

Post by Sammi »

IOT_Apprentice wrote: post #516
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. But a whole lot of people dislike people due to culture or class signals.

Do you think Stephen Miller is a classist rather than a bigot? Why not both? I mean he is only worth somewhere between 1-10 million. Shrug. I think Vivek Ramaswamy found out how that worked out for himself in politics and at DOGE as a billionaire. I suspect your view of very, very few is suspect. The founding ideas of MAGA certainly cling to it. The 60-70 million voters for it have zero issues with it.

He said "most" , not "all".

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#539

Post by HPsquared »

trollbridge wrote: post #232
XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

People buy into all kinds of money-losing businesses... Edible Arrangements, Nothing Bundt Cakes, various multi-level marketing type of schemes. And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job.

It's not much different from going into debt to get a degree to get a job. Especially if your chosen field has only a single employer. In fact the college degree is often more speculative and risky, and a worse deal.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#540

Post by lucyjojo »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #514
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist It just manifests as racism.

Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. But a whole lot of people dislike people due to culture or class signals.

as a black man that has been around. i seriously doubt that.
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