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Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

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Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#531

Post by bawolff »

grafmax wrote: post #529
warbaker wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"without distinguishing between military officials and civilians" Israel has air supremacy over Tehran. The facts don't support your narrative that Israel is flattening Tehran.

“Flattening” implies damage more widespread than I have described. My statement, sourced from numerous credible news organizations, which I have linked, is that Israel has attacked residential areas. As for Israel’s air superiority over Tehran (also an established fact as far as I can tell) I have no idea how you think that is supposed to be a rebuttal of anything I’ve said.

I think you could reasonably say that there is credible information that Israel has attacked targets that are near or in residential areas (at the very least they seem to have done targeted assinations of high level military officials in their homes).

However that's different than saying they are targeting residential areas themselves. That's the part that i think the other poster is objecting to. Air supperiority matters here because it means Israel has the ability to target basically anything they want (so you could assume things not targeted are by choice and not lack of ability).

If total wounded (not even killed, just wounded) of both millitary and civilians is ~1200, that kind of suggests that Israel is not targeting residential buildings in general, since just a few apartment building would likely have more casualties than that.

Not to say this is iron clad reasoning. Maybe Iran is downplaying casualties for propaganda purposes (otoh i think they would be splashing photos of destroyed residential buildings everywhere if Israel was destroying them in general, as that makes for great PR). I don't really know, but there is enough doubt here that I don't think its confirmed Israel is targeting residential areas in general.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#532

Post by gspencley »

dttze wrote: post #79
gspencley wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very fair point. I think the difference is that Iran has been actively trying to follow through with its threats and this has been demonstrated through its actions towards an American ally over the past year. This gives reason to believe that Iran's threats are both credible and, while a full-scale war between Iran and the USA might not fare well for Iran ... you don't need to demonstrate that you are capabl…

> this has been demonstrated through its actions towards an American ally over the past year. And what about that ally's actions towards Iran? Like assassinating political and military figures inside the country? Which would traditionally be considered an act of war. If anything, Iran has been too passive.

> And what about that ally's actions towards Iran?

I'm going to share a personal world view. Some may find this controversial or strongly disagree with this world view and that's fine. This is my opinion, not yours.

What gives a nation-state legitimacy is how well adheres to what is, in my personal opinion, the only moral justification for having a government in the first place: the protection of individual rights.

Human beings have two fundamental ways that we can deal with each other: reason/diplomacy or force.

When reason is chosen, life flourishes. People live together peacefully and we create things, start businesses & families and build communities and thrive.

When force is chosen we get war, destruction, poverty, misery and death. We get gangs, thugs and instability.

The need for a government comes from this dichotomy. Government exists, fundamentally, to remove the element of force from civil existence.

My definition of liberty is "An environment in which all interpersonal relations are consensual."

No country, even the freest in the world today, adheres to this principle perfectly. But we can certainly say that some do it better than others. We can even say that some do it a HELL OF A LOT better than others to the point where there is no rational basis for comparison.

Therefore, the question "And what about that ally's actions towards Iran?" places Israel and Iran on equal moral footing.

I reject that wholeheartedly.

On the one hand you have a nation state that is a liberal democracy. It's not perfect, but people can live and pursue their lives there in relative peace and freedom. You can believe what you want to. Live your life as an LGBT+ individual without interference. Start a business. Own property. Have a family and pretty much do what you want with your one and only shot at this life.

On the other hand you have a religious theocracy that murders women for not covering their hair and throws LGBT+ people off of rooftops and executes people just for criticizing the government.

So, what ABOUT Israel's actions towards Iran, exactly?

To point the finger at a free country taking action against a dictatorship is to suggest that that dictatorship has rights.

It doesn't.

The entire basis for a country's right to exist is the recognition and protection of rights. You can't, on the one hand, say "I have the right to exist and to defend myself" while routinely infringing on the rights of your own citizens. You can't violate peoples' rights and then go and hide behind the concept of rights. That concept is based on the mutual recognition, respect and value for reason and diplomacy over force.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#533

Post by grafmax »

bawolff wrote: post #531
grafmax wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Flattening” implies damage more widespread than I have described. My statement, sourced from numerous credible news organizations, which I have linked, is that Israel has attacked residential areas. As for Israel’s air superiority over Tehran (also an established fact as far as I can tell) I have no idea how you think that is supposed to be a rebuttal of anything I’ve said.

I think you could reasonably say that there is credible information that Israel has attacked targets that are near or in residential areas (at the very least they seem to have done targeted assinations of high level military officials in their homes). However that's different than saying they are targeting residential areas themselves. That's the part that i think the other poster is objecting to. Air supperiority ma…

Israel government justified its genocide of Gaza with its supposedly targeted strikes of Hamas. This narrative has lost all credibility. And we have seen with Gaza what effect “PR” has on stopping the atrocities committed there - none.

The Israeli government views non combatants affected as expendable targets with zero value. This is what we are seeing with the strikes on residential areas. It’s not that they are “flattening” Tehran in the initial stages of war, but that Israel military policy so disregards the lives of non combatants that attacks on residential areas are justified in its view.

Thus, the notion that the Iranian people are supposed to unite with the Israeli government to overthrow the “common enemy” (the Iranian government) is absurd; the Israeli war machine should be viewed as having zero regard for the Iranian people; they are expendable as long as Israeli military objectives are furthered; that is an established pattern now and that is what is evidenced by the strikes against residential areas considered against the backdrop of the atrocities in Gaza.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#534

Post by trustinmenowpls »

greiskul wrote: post #47
fortzi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRGC is known for funding and training militant and terrier groups globally. They also call for the annihilation of the Big Satan (USA) and the Small Satan (Israel). All the while running for The Bomb. I wouldn’t call the present sutuation stable.

> known for funding and training militant and terrier groups globally So does the US. > They also call for the annihilation of the Big Satan (USA) and the Small Satan (Israel) You are literally calling for the annihilation of their state here. > All the while running for The Bomb. Only one country has ever used nuclear weapons in war. There is definitely a cold war going on between Israel and Iran. I'm not sure if it…

> So does the US.

nope.

> You are literally calling for the annihilation of their state here.

Nope, people are only calling for the unpopular regime to be replaced by a popular one.

> There is definitely a cold war going on between Israel and Iran.

Hezbollah is an actual arm of the IRGC so it's a hot war and has been for 25+ years.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#535

Post by ty6853 »

trustinmenowpls wrote: post #534
greiskul wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> known for funding and training militant and terrier groups globally So does the US. > They also call for the annihilation of the Big Satan (USA) and the Small Satan (Israel) You are literally calling for the annihilation of their state here. > All the while running for The Bomb. Only one country has ever used nuclear weapons in war. There is definitely a cold war going on between Israel and Iran. I'm not sure if it…

> So does the US. nope. > You are literally calling for the annihilation of their state here. Nope, people are only calling for the unpopular regime to be replaced by a popular one. > There is definitely a cold war going on between Israel and Iran. Hezbollah is an actual arm of the IRGC so it's a hot war and has been for 25+ years.

Nobody is buying this bullshit anymore, we're not going down for your campaign to dupe us into "replacing a popular one" like happened in Iraq when the USA created a power vacuum and then much of it got taken over by ISIS, much of which was left to Kurdish and other local resistance groups to flush out after your deranged "nope. Nope," propaganda of lies military campaign ended.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#536

Post by antifa »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #442
dandanua wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, because that system worked for a few generations of people. A sudden change, even for a theoretically better system, can't make things better for people. Now we can see how much worse things became. Russia is completely deranged state at the moment, much much worse than Iran.

Communism never worked. People just survived it for a few generations. Who can say what europe would look like today if the Soviet union hadn't collapsed in 1991?

Probably would have been much better under communism for the last 30 years, if you want to go by comparing China's last 30 years of growth and prosperity and comparing that to my state's last 30 years of stagnation and methlabsperity.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#537

Post by trustinmenowpls »

grafmax wrote: post #533
bawolff wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could reasonably say that there is credible information that Israel has attacked targets that are near or in residential areas (at the very least they seem to have done targeted assinations of high level military officials in their homes). However that's different than saying they are targeting residential areas themselves. That's the part that i think the other poster is objecting to. Air supperiority ma…

Israel government justified its genocide of Gaza with its supposedly targeted strikes of Hamas. This narrative has lost all credibility. And we have seen with Gaza what effect “PR” has on stopping the atrocities committed there - none. The Israeli government views non combatants affected as expendable targets with zero value. This is what we are seeing with the strikes on residential areas. It’s not that they are “fl…

The narrative that there is a genocide in gaza has lost all credibility. The gazan population has grown since the war started, its completely ludicrous to claim a genocide while the population is literally growing. People have been making claims of genocide since Israel took over in '67, it never made any sense then and it makes even less sense today. People who make such claims should be seen for what they are: charlatans and liars looking to discredit zionists and jews everywhere.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#538

Post by g8oz »

trustinmenowpls wrote: post #537
grafmax wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel government justified its genocide of Gaza with its supposedly targeted strikes of Hamas. This narrative has lost all credibility. And we have seen with Gaza what effect “PR” has on stopping the atrocities committed there - none. The Israeli government views non combatants affected as expendable targets with zero value. This is what we are seeing with the strikes on residential areas. It’s not that they are “fl…

The narrative that there is a genocide in gaza has lost all credibility. The gazan population has grown since the war started, its completely ludicrous to claim a genocide while the population is literally growing. People have been making claims of genocide since Israel took over in '67, it never made any sense then and it makes even less sense today. People who make such claims should be seen for what they are: char…

You are replying to the alleged false narrative with a rather thin Zionist talking point of your own. The legal definition of genocide does not require total population numbers to go down. The deliberate systemic slaughter and use of starvation are enough on their own.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#539

Post by amendegree »

tguvot wrote: post #525
runarberg wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

denying existence of palestinian state is not racist. because it never existed, it doesn't exist now and whatever exist as result of Oslo agreement doesn't meet definition of state. in previous conversation i said that I don't care how they self identify. for all i care they can identify as Atlanteans. On the other side, you been denying palestinians their self identification. this is racist. i gave you two example o…

I tried engaging this guy a few days ago, he’s very single minded in his opinions. He’s not interested in reason, only in hating a certain group of people who originate from a particular region in the Middle East. It’s good to see others are trying but you’re just gonna end up frustrated as he ties himself in knots to paint you as bigot while displaying many of those same traits.

Re: Iran asks its people to delete WhatsApp from their devices

#540

Post by bawolff »

grafmax wrote: post #533
bawolff wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could reasonably say that there is credible information that Israel has attacked targets that are near or in residential areas (at the very least they seem to have done targeted assinations of high level military officials in their homes). However that's different than saying they are targeting residential areas themselves. That's the part that i think the other poster is objecting to. Air supperiority ma…

Israel government justified its genocide of Gaza with its supposedly targeted strikes of Hamas. This narrative has lost all credibility. And we have seen with Gaza what effect “PR” has on stopping the atrocities committed there - none. The Israeli government views non combatants affected as expendable targets with zero value. This is what we are seeing with the strikes on residential areas. It’s not that they are “fl…

> This is what we are seeing with the strikes on residential areas. It’s not that they are “flattening” Tehran in the initial stages of war, but that Israel military policy so disregards the lives of non combatants that attacks on residential areas are justified in its view.

The death toll in Iran is not really consistent with that. (At least based on what has been reported so far. Admittedly there is much uncertainty)

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