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Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

ca.finance.yahoo.com

531–540 of 635 posts

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platfo…

> solve the free rider problem This framing just doesn't register. You want developers to develop apps for your product, app availability is what makes users choose to buy the hardware/use the OS. They're not "free riding", they're what makes your product worth buying.

The "free riders" aren't developers in general, they're the developers not paying for their portion of the upkeep. Like I said, someone has to pay for the dev work that goes into making the platform, building the SDKs and maintaining the whole thing. No one works for free. So Apple can get that paid for either by charging more for hardware, charging for access to the dev kits, or taking a cut of sales for products produced with those dev kits. Apple chose the later.

So now they have a problem, not all software is monetized. You want to have the ability for people to choose to distribute software for free. Open source projects, educational, charity, and also "accessory apps" (think your bank app). But you don't want to charge developers money that they're not making. Imagine the shit storm Apple would stir up if they just started charging free apps a monthly fee to be listed in the app store at all. You also want to have young and new developers without a lot of capital to have access (that's why so many companies used to offer student discounts). But the problem becomes how do you allow that, and also allow in app downloads and purchases without every developer just having a "free" downloader app that then downloads the real application code that you pay for separately?

Let's say you sell a dev tool. And you decide you want to support open source projects, so you offer free licenses to any open source project. Would it satisfy your licensing if some company that had an "open source" curl wrapper that downloaded and executed binary blobs for which there was no source code? I doubt it. You'd rightfully say that an app that does nothing except download and launch closed source binary blobs is not in and of itself an open source project for the purposes of your license. It's the same basic idea for Apple. An app that only serves to download or unlock the "real" app after you pay the developer in a separate external transaction is not a "free" app of the sort Apple intends to allow. So they don't allow external transactions at all except for a narrow set of circumstances, and in those cases they don't allow steering. This maximizes the number of developers who are funding the costs of the platform, reducing the overall cost for all the developers who are paying and subsidizing a limited set of developers who are distributing free applications.

Or to try one other way of thinking about it, everyone hates the "freemium" business model. How much crappier would it be knowing that all the "freemium" games were paying absolutely nothing, but everyone who chooses not to engage in the freemium model still had to pay 15-30% to apple on their revenue?

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platfo…

Ultimately all the money Apple is making from the store comes from the pockets of people. If apps won't have to pay a cut to Apple, people would be left with more money in their pockets. If all apps were free and no sales would be forced to go through those apps, Apple still sells the phones and makes money from them. Would it be left with less money? Not my problem. Would it increase the cost of phones (maybe only i…

> Would it increase the cost of phones (maybe only in the EU) to compensate the missing revenues?

Probably not "fair" since the EU seems opposed to their "core technology fee", which is (supposedly) a fee to the developers to compensate for the missing revenues. And if the EU allowed raising prices in EU counties to offset that lost revenue, but didn't allow the core tech fee, that would effectively be the EU outlawing making your money on software rather than on hardware. It seems more likely the EU would just demand continued subsidized access to the same services, like they already did with facebook.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platfo…

That logic doesn't work for me. The person who paid for the sdk is the person who bought the iphone. Typically the definition of free riding requires that if everyone behaved like the free riders, then the system would cease to exist. If apple made $0 off the app store, would they still make iphones? I would assume yes since they are profitable devices. Hence this isn't free riding.

> The person who paid for the sdk is the person who bought the iphone.

Are they? Then why did companies previously charge per seat annual licenses for their SDKs? Were the people who bought the computers and products back then not also paying for the SDK?

Clearly the answer is "who is paying" depends on the model you set up. You can take your income stream from the initial hardware sales, or you can take it from subscription fees, or you can take it in revenue sharing models. Apple chose the latter, and so every developer that finds some way to use the platform and not share their revenue is a "free rider" relative to the other developers who are now subsidizing them.

>If apple made $0 off the app store, would they still make iphones? I would assume yes since they are profitable devices. Hence this isn't free riding.

It's not "would they still make phones" they might. It's "would they still make phones that 3rd parties can develop applications for at the same price they currently charge and without per seat annual $1k+ up front license fees to prospective developers."

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That logic doesn't work for me. The person who paid for the sdk is the person who bought the iphone. Typically the definition of free riding requires that if everyone behaved like the free riders, then the system would cease to exist. If apple made $0 off the app store, would they still make iphones? I would assume yes since they are profitable devices. Hence this isn't free riding.

> The person who paid for the sdk is the person who bought the iphone. Are they? Then why did companies previously charge per seat annual licenses for their SDKs? Were the people who bought the computers and products back then not also paying for the SDK? Clearly the answer is "who is paying" depends on the model you set up. You can take your income stream from the initial hardware sales, or you can take it from subs…

> It's not "would they still make phones" they might. It's "would they still make phones that 3rd parties can develop applications for at the same price they currently charge and without per seat annual $1k+ up front license fees to prospective developers."

The answer still seems like a very obvious yes. Certainly in the modern context where most of the value of the phone comes from apps and app devs can go to android if ios becomes to onerous.

Which is probably exactly why apple chose this model instead of per seat.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#535
post #249

US officials and businessmen keep on repeating the same thing: > The European Commission is attempting to handicap successful American businesses while allowing Chinese and European companies to operate under different standards. But this is wildly untrue. The EU isn't hand-picking individual organisations and fining them because they're American, they're fining them because they're in breach of existing legislation.…

US corporations are too used to breaking laws as they see fit and getting away with a slap on the wrist, so being asked to follow the rules feels like an attack to them.

They're also very used to lobbying to get what they want, as soon as that's not possible, they have a tantrum.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, and you are free to do so and will continue to be free to do so. The point is that the OP is not free to do so.

>Great, and you are free to do so and will continue to be free to do so. Not necessarily, once other channels are available developers could choose to force their clients down that road.

If they have sufficient market power to force consumers to do anything, they should also be subject to antitrust.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Show signs of rent seeking behaviour" seems like an extremely generous position. Forbidding your customers from even mentioning The Outside is full-on rent seeking behaviour, since its inception.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platfo…

> And yes I know we can all scoff and say “oh poor multi-billion dollar Apple can’t get paid but getting paid is exactly how Apple is a multibillion dollar company.

The entire discussion there could be summed up as people have become convinced that Apple the multi-billion dollar company should shift revenue to Facebook or Netflix (or whoever), the other multi-billion dollar company. Fantastic marketing by them to convince people this is a moral thing to do and must be done. It has nothing to do with small developers or better experiences for customers, just an increase in X for Netflix.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Show signs of rent seeking behaviour" seems like an extremely generous position. Forbidding your customers from even mentioning The Outside is full-on rent seeking behaviour, since its inception.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platfo…

> Personally I think Apple is big enough now and the App Store is popular enough now

This isn't a steelman. These aren't real problems as you well know and they know. There's no motivation (no argument needed) other than rent seeking.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Show signs of rent seeking behaviour" seems like an extremely generous position. Forbidding your customers from even mentioning The Outside is full-on rent seeking behaviour, since its inception.

To steel man the policy, one thing it helps avoid is the free rider problem. Apples store terms are than free apps don’t pay a commission to Apple. But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform. We no longer live in an age where Apple or Microsoft gets away with charging for multi thousand dollar per year per seat developer license for their platforms, but that doesn’t mean those platfo…

> But someone has to pay for the costs of developing the SDKs and the platform.

The business model Apple has used since the Macintosh is that the hardware subsidizes the software. I paid for the platform when I bought the device. The only reason why there's even a "free rider problem" is that Apple believes itself entitled to a 30% cut of half of mobile, forever.

Furthermore, we've known since the failure of OS/2 (at least) that expensive development tools almost guarantee zero software uptake. The platforms that win are the ones where the developer tools are affordable or free. In other words, it is not the third party developer's job to pay for the platforms they rely upon. It is the platform's job to pay (in a roundabout way) for the third-party software.

In fact, that's why Apple even has a reader app exception. They know Netflix doesn't have 30% to give and they know nobody's going to buy an iPhone that won't play Netflix.

The reality of Apple's business model is that they absolutely could give away the platform, make money off the phones and the OS, and remain profitable. But investors don't invest into profitable companies. They invest into growing companies. Tim Cook has to treat developers' bank accounts as his own because that's the only thing that makes Apple stock valuable.

Re: Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law

#540
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternatives are Samsung, Xiaomi, Oppo and others. Already the dominant brands in Europe. It doesn't have to be European, it has to be good and those are pretty good at much cheaper prices. They also offer premium models that Apple doesn't have a match. People pay a lot extra for the feelings the brand invokes in them. Tesla was like that when it was about the values it used to represent, right after Musk dropped…

American brands should tread carefully: while America is willing to ban their (cheaper, sometimes better) competitors, Europe is much less willing to — especially now as America itself has taken a much more bullying tone towards its allies.

America overestimates its economic strength on the world stage because they have an unmatched military, but when all books are closed its only 300M people and most of em are broke. That's a market the same size as Brazil, Australia and the UK combined - it's a lot but it's not enough to start unilaterally declaring yourself the boss. USA is playing a losing strategy here.
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