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Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

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Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#531
post #494
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could lose because of unfair business practices.

Elaborating on this, it's almost certainly a civil case that goes to arbitration, which really means that the arbitrator has to feel like Adobe is in the right. It's quite informal relative to typical legal settings, and if the arbitrator doesn't feel like siding with Adobe... they won't. Furthermore, it's going to cost Adobe a minimum of $1500 to even bring the case to arbitration, and probably $15k more in legal fe…

This.

Adobe knows this. It’s a numbers game; if they have an honest monthly subscription and someone cancels, they get nothing.

If they have this scammy subscription and they collect 50% of the remainder for 50% of people, it’s like a free 25% (of the remaining “annual” term).

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is trying to copyright an image hash and determinism matters because it’s why the outputs are derivative rather than inspired.

That is not how copyright works. "Inspired" works can still be derrivative. In the US, entirely deterministic works are not considered derrivative works as they aren't considered new creative works (if anything they are considered the same as the original). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel...

“In the US, entirely deterministic works are not considered derrivative works as they aren't considered new creative works (if anything they are considered the same as the original)”

Okay, so if the inputs to the model are my artwork to replicate my style, is the output copyrightable by you? You just said deterministic works aren’t derivative, they’re considered the same as the original. That’s not anything I’ve heard AI proponents claim and the outputs are more original than a 1 to 1 photocopy but I assume like the case you linked to that the answer will be, no, you can’t copyright.

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely convinced by the artists' argument, but this argument is also unconvincing to me. If someone steals from you, but it's a negligible amount, or you don't even notice it, does that make it not stealing? If the thief then starts selling the things they stole from you, directly competing with you, are your grievances less valid now since you didn't complain about the theft before?

Nothing was stolen from the artists but instead used without their permission. The thing being used is an idea, not anything the artist loses access to when someone else has it. What is there to complain about? Why should others listen to the complaints (disregarding copyright law because that is circular reasoning)?

So many problems with your reasoning.

"Nothing was stolen from the artists but instead used without their permission"

Yes and no. Sure, the artist didn't loose anything physical, but neither did music or movie producers when people downloaded and shared MP3s and videos. They still won in court based on the profits they determined the "theft" cost them, and the settlements were absurdly high. How is this different? An artist's work is essentially their resume. AI companies use their work without permission to create programs specifically intended to generate similar work in seconds, this substantially impacts an artist's ability to profit from their work. You seem to be suggesting that artists have no right to control the profits their work can generate - an argument I can't imagine you would extend to corporations.

"The thing being used is an idea"

This is profoundly absurd. AI companies aren't taking ideas directly from artist's heads... yet. They're not training their models on ideas. They're training them on the actual images artists create with skills honed over decades of work.

"not anything the artist loses access to when someone else has it"

Again, see point #1. The courts have long established that what's lost in IP theft is the potential for future profits, not something directly physical. By your reasoning here, there should be no such things as patents. I should be able to take anyone or any corporation's "ideas" and use them to produce my own products to sell. And this is a perfect analogy - why would any corporation invest millions or billions of dollars developing a product if anyone could just take the "ideas" they came up with and immediately undercut the corporation with clones or variants of their products? Exactly similar, why would an artist invest years or decades of time honing the skills needed to create imagery if massive corporations can just take that work, feed it into their programs and generate similar work in seconds for pennies?

"What is there to complain about"

The loss of income potential, which is precisely what courts have agreed with when corporations are on the receiving end of IP theft.

"Why should others listen to the complaints"

Because what's happening is objectively wrong. You are exactly the kind of person the corporatocracy wants - someone who just say "Ehhh, I wasn't personally impacted, so I don't care". And not only don't you care, you actively argue in favor of the corporations. Is it any wonder society is what it is today?

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the scummy part is that you can't cancel the recurring subscription in advance. If my renewal date is 2 months from now and I try to cancel they will charge me a fee immediately and end the subscription. The only way to cancel without charge is to come back right as the rebill is about to occur. There is no excuse for that other than they want to fuck over as many people as possible.

Yep, that’s shitty. So let’s give them flak for that, not for something they don’t do anymore.

[flagged]

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#535
post #486
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's highly unlikely they'll go in court for a single user, but if everyone starts doing this, they'll sue. It doesn't matter the payment failed, you still legally owe Adobe (or any other service) money.

They could lose because of unfair business practices.

Is it? It clearly says "Annual, billed monthly" and "Fee applies if you cancel after 14 days." next to the price.

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#536
post #363

Adobe runs what must be one of the largest deceptive rebills. The vast majority of users signing up for a monthly plan do not realize that it is actually an "annual plan, billed monthly" and thus that if they cancel after one month (for example) they'll be billed for the remaining 11 immediately. I honestly don't know how they haven't faced FTC action for this, as it's been their primary model for 5-10 years now.

I have one of those "annual plan, billed monthly". How the hell do I figure out when I initially signed for it? Along the way, I got two free months for getting a Logitech mouse, does that change my annual month?

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#537
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why you always use throwaway cards for this.

I would be too lazy to bother with a throwaway in almost all circumstances, but I would 100% attempt a charge back in anger. I'm uncertain how my bank would ultimately respond though.

Adobe did a pretty good job at disclosing the "annual plan, billed monthly" aspect so they'll likely win any chargebacks. That said, your bank might just cave and reimburse you out of pocket.

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had assumed when you said that a human retaining information was "unavoidable" and a machine retaining it was "avoidable" that the implication was we wouldn't tolerate humans retaining information if it was also "avoidable". Otherwise I'm unclear what the intent of distinguishing between "avoidable" and "unavoidable" was, and I'm unclear what it has to do with whether or not an AI model that was trained with "unlic…

I’m in the camp that believes that it’s neither necessary nor desirable to hold humans and software to the same standard of law. Society exists for our collective benefit and we make concessions with each other to ensure it functions smoothly and I don’t think those concessions should necessarily extend to automated processes even if they do in fact mimic humans for the myriad ways in which they differ from us.

So what benefit do we derive as a society from deciding that the capability for copyright infringement is in and of itself infringement? What do we gain by overturning the current protections the law (or society) currently has for technologies like xerox machines, VHS tapes, blank CDs and DVDs, media ripping tools, and site scraping tools? Open source digital media encoding, blank media, site scraping tools and bit-torrent enable copyright infringement on a massive scale to the tune of millions or more dollars in losses every year if you believe the media companies. And yet, I would argue as a society we would be worse off without those tools. In fact, I'd even argue that as a society we'd be worse off without some degree of tolerated copyright infringement. How many pieces of interesting media have been "saved" from the dust bin of history and preserved for future generations by people committing copyright infringement for their own purposes? Things like early seasons of Dr Who or other TV shows that were taped over and so the only extant copies are from people's home collections taped off the TV. The "De-specialized" editions of Star Wars are probably the most high quality and true to the original cuts of the original Star Wars trilogy that exist, and they are unequivocally pure copyright infringement.

Or consider the youtube video "Fan.tasia"[1]. That is a collection of unlicensed video clips, combined with another individual's work which itself is a collection of unlicensed audio clips mashed together into a amalgamation of sight and sound to produce something new and I would argue original, but very clearly also full of copyright infringement and facilitated by a bunch of technologies that enable doing infringement at scale. It is (IMO) far more obviously copyright infringement than anything an AI model is. Yet I would argue a world in which that media and the technologies that enable it were made illegal, or heavily restricted to only the people that could afford to license all of the things that went into it from the people who created all the original works, would be a worse world for us all. The ability to easily commit copyright infringement at scale enabled the production of new and interesting art that would not have existed otherwise, and almost certainly built skills (like editing and mixing) for the people involved. That, to me, is more valuable to society than ensuring that all the artists and studios whose work went into that media got whatever fractions of a penny they lost from having their works infringed.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-6xk4W6N20&pp=ygUJZmFuLnRhc...

Re: Adobe deletes Bluesky posts after backlash

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We successfully stopped paying for a collection of Adobe products that were for a student license last year. We randomly were charged again in January and February of this year and when I called they couldn't find any records of charges. They recommended contesting the charges on the card and we've not been charged since. Still, crazy that they couldn't even verify they charged my card.

I will never do subscriptions. As you mentioned, the fact that you you have to "successfully stop an automatic payment" is an experience that I'm not willing to go through.

Capital One has a feature where you can generate temporary card numbers. Each one can be authorized for "a single charge" or "repeating charges at one merchant". And you have a toggle switch in the latter case to dis/enable payments. Really handy for subscriptions.
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