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Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

inpractice.yimbyaction.org

531–539 of 539 posts

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#531
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have mixed feelings around rent controls, though. In a healthy, competitive market they should be unnecessary over the long term, but if cities are going to restrict housing construction... They're a (terrible-outcome-causing) band aid over a combination of too many people and not enough construction.

Rent controls work in many cities around the world A simple cap on rent does not work, true. But comprehensive policies to keep rent down and local people housed, can work

> policies to keep rent down and local people housed, can work

For sure - making sure demand doesn't massively for housing exceed supply of housing is all you need.

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but without rent control landlords will charge as much as they want to charge. The price of what the market will bear just goes up because everyone will raise prices. Software like RealPage will become even more prevalent. It really only helps the landlord, who is already well off to begin with. Additionally, I can’t think of any homeowner who will vote to increase their property tax, especially if it’s already…

Landlords require a certain multiple of rent in proven income. So the rent is automatically capped by local wages. It's pretty black and white - either the landlord asked a price in line with local wages or they didn't. If they go too far,the landlord gets punished with expensive vacancies, or they loosen rent/income requirements and get punished with even more expensive evictions. Point is, landlords aren't gangster…

They aren't individually gangsters. But collectively, it is equivalent to a form of extortion.

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe in strong tenants rights - IF you pay your rent on time and are not damaging property or otherwise misbehaving. If you stop paying, you should be out within 60 days that your security deposit should cover. There should be mechanisms where through a process tenants can legally withhold rent if basic repairs or maintenance aren't being done. If a landlord can't or won't do it, they shouldn't be a landlord. Ev…

> If you stop paying, you should be out within 60 days that your security deposit should cover. Sure, if you stop paying, and if there isn't some sort of temporary hardship that you could reasonably fight your way through to make good on back and current rent. Given what you've written, I expect that you know that that's part of what the eviction process is for... determining if the landlord is lying about the state…

I've got a minor in economics, but I'm also not a rabid capitalist, so I do give lots of thought on both sides of any economic argument.

Unless it's public housing (which for the record I do support, though I think that in practice it should be at the margins in most jurisdictions), landlords shouldn't be part of the social safety net (unless they have some extra tax advantage in exchange - fun fact is that as much as hospitals whine about the costs of having to treat everybody in the ER regardless of ability to pay, they actually have a very generous tax benefit for it). Having temporary unemployment/hardship vouchers up to some max is one thing, but if you can't pay after a certain amount of time you shouldn't be in private housing. Maybe 60 days is too soon, but in many jurisdictions it can be far, far longer. I am not at all opposed to a due process in withholding rent if the landlord side of the contract is not being upheld, my example was for "I can't or won't pay for some non-housing reasons".

I pretty much agree with everything you said about rent controls, which is why I said "mixed feelings". California, arguably the greatest state in the union, is ungovernable due to the fact that the government literally can't govern when it comes to taxation (and even mandated spending). If there is a healthy market where supply and demand can be balanced, there should be no need for it.

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you stop paying, you should be out within 60 days that your security deposit should cover. Sure, if you stop paying, and if there isn't some sort of temporary hardship that you could reasonably fight your way through to make good on back and current rent. Given what you've written, I expect that you know that that's part of what the eviction process is for... determining if the landlord is lying about the state…

I've got a minor in economics, but I'm also not a rabid capitalist, so I do give lots of thought on both sides of any economic argument. Unless it's public housing (which for the record I do support, though I think that in practice it should be at the margins in most jurisdictions), landlords shouldn't be part of the social safety net (unless they have some extra tax advantage in exchange - fun fact is that as much a…

> ...I'm also not a rabid capitalist...

Oh, I very much am. But I'm also keenly aware of the need for strong, well-enforced regulation in order to maintain functional markets so that we continue to have a strong capitalist system. The US is sorely lacking in the "strong, well-enforced regulation" department, so...

> ...landlords shouldn't be part of the social safety net...

This is a distinction that's not at all clear.

In nearly all jurisdictions, landlords give up very many of their property rights when they rent it out for folks to live in. For example, they are expected to meet basic habitability requirements (and cannot fob responsibility for this off to their tenants), and are very often barred from wandering into their property whenever they feel like.

Some landlords out there would argue pretty strenuously that the raft of restrictions they're burdened with means that they already are part of the social safety net.

I would argue that providing rental housing to people who can't afford to buy in the area is totally being part of the social safety net.

> ...unless they have some extra tax advantage in exchange...

Man, landlords (especially ones in "hot" areas) get so many financial advantages. I'm disinterested in giving them more.

> ...if you can't pay after a certain amount of time you shouldn't be in private housing.

Perhaps this is what you meant by "vouchers", but what if if The State covers the missing part of the tenant's financial obligations to their landlord? If the tenant's fallen on hard times (but is otherwise a fine tenant), why should the landlord care where the money comes from? The problem with "Just go live in public housing" is that in so many places, public housing just doesn't exist.

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#535
post #149

The problem here is talk is cheap. I've lived in SF and have heard a decade of talking heads prattling on about building housing, and then looking at the plans and they all end up being gobbledygook about "well if you do 20% Affordable, you can do 50% more units, but if it's 40% Affordable, you can do three more floors," and I keep staring at it and just think... why not just let people build more without doing anyth…

I can't agree with this. I've also lived in SF for the last 30 years and by my lights a simpler, more effective policy would be to roll up the red carpet that was rolled out to tech companies. I don't consider the problem to be one of inadequate supply. I consider the problem to be one of excessive demand from one class of higher-compensation workers more-insulated from market forces (tech workers) out-competing anot…

This is so ridiculously naive. It's happening in every single major city in America.

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got a minor in economics, but I'm also not a rabid capitalist, so I do give lots of thought on both sides of any economic argument. Unless it's public housing (which for the record I do support, though I think that in practice it should be at the margins in most jurisdictions), landlords shouldn't be part of the social safety net (unless they have some extra tax advantage in exchange - fun fact is that as much a…

> ...I'm also not a rabid capitalist... Oh, I very much am. But I'm also keenly aware of the need for strong, well-enforced regulation in order to maintain functional markets so that we continue to have a strong capitalist system. The US is sorely lacking in the "strong, well-enforced regulation" department, so... > ...landlords shouldn't be part of the social safety net... This is a distinction that's not at all cle…

I think we mostly agree, but are debating over finer details (which is fine, I do enjoy lively discussions like that).

The TL;DR is of course there are edge cases for everything. There are reasons that are perfectly "fine" for rent being late, etc. I could have had a personal emergency. My bank could have had computer problems, etc. There are also reasons it can take time for a landlord to fix something. I may as a tenant willingly prioritize cheaper rent, knowing that my plumbing issue may take longer to fix as a wait for a cheaper plumber not on call 24x7 can take longer.

There are deadbeat landlords and there are deadbeat tenants. IMHO, whatever the law dictates should make it suck to be either. If a rule needs to pick a side, it should probably tilt to the tenant as a landlord should otherwise know what they're getting into with risks, etc.

> In nearly all jurisdictions, landlords give up very many of their property rights when they rent it out for folks to live in. For example, they are expected to meet basic habitability requirements (and cannot fob responsibility for this off to their tenants), and are very often barred from wandering into their property whenever they feel like.

This is not true everywhere. In many parts of Europe, the tenant is responsible for almost everything after it exits a wall, including in cabinets, a good chunk of plumbing, utilities, and appliances (this is particularly true in Switzerland and Germany - there are many stories of perplexed foreigners moving into apartments they saw that was still being used by the previous tenants and seeing striped down kitchens, etc).

> Some landlords out there would argue pretty strenuously that the raft of restrictions they're burdened with means that they already are part of the social safety net.

This is true. Like many people, I've lived in sub-standard housing in my student days. Hilariously, I look fondly on that era of my life because I knew it was temporary and of course we prioritized alcohol, fun, etc.

There's a very real problem that if one removes "rundown" housing that it usually just removes the cheaper rung of the ladder, making it harder for poor people to live anywhere. Some jurisdictions provide specific programs (vouchers, tax advantages, etc) for providing "low-income" housing to cover this. Some, in particular "champagne socialist" groups, use it to push out undesirables.

> I would argue that providing rental housing to people who can't afford to buy in the area is totally being part of the social safety net.

Then I think landlords should totally get supports, either directly or indirectly. I just don't think a rental unit that's geared to professinals, etc should be part of that.

> Man, landlords (especially ones in "hot" areas) get so many financial advantages. I'm disinterested in giving them more.

I agree with what you're saying. Any new policies should be holistic and take full stock of what rules are already present and replace a lot of bad ones.

> Perhaps this is what you meant by "vouchers", but what if if The State covers the missing part of the tenant's financial obligations to their landlord? If the tenant's fallen on hard times (but is otherwise a fine tenant), why should the landlord care where the money comes from? The problem with "Just go live in public housing" is that in so many places, public housing just doesn't exist.

I meant vouchers or public housing as an example of a long term policy, I don't think it should be a short term solution to sudden rent issues. Taken holistically, temp housing support could happen via unemployment benefits that could take rent into consideration (I'm assuming there's also a good reason the tenant doesn't have savings or can't move in with relatives, etc). The issue is that employment insurance, housing, welfare, etc are often the responsibility of different levels of government, making holistic policies more difficult.

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of the Tennant rights are waived for it if the primary property is owner occupied, aside from some cities like oakland And this can change overnight... CA cities have made some pretty drastic changes quite suddenly in the past. Not worth it. Eg: https://www.mv-voice.com/news/2025/01/29/mountain-view-stren...

Oh how I know it. I know someone who got fucked by the COVID eviction moratorium. 3 years of lost rent on a Bay area house while eating the mortgage, plus 250k property damage. Judgement proof Tennant mean that comes out of retirement and college funds. Makes me wish criminal charges were viable.

How did they do 250k of property damage?

Not doubting it, just curious. Ripped out all copper, all appliances, and flooded it intentionally on the way out?

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#538

I've grown a little bit more skeptical of what can realistically be achieved by the passive nature of YIMBY-ism. In Portland, they passed some radical new zoning laws a few years ago that allowed anyone, anywhere the ability to zone ADUs on their property. And the cost to get permits is almost nothing. I have lots of friends and family in the area with property. But not a single one has added an ADU. It seems like it…

My small city in Washington is the template for the state's ADU law and multi-family density law. When the ADU law passed, we saw a lot of people convert garages into ADUs and anymore any custom builds almost always add an ADU. But to your point - it isn't clear how many have become rentals. What I observe is that many people saw it as good resale value, as multi-generational living, or simply a place to put guests w…

> as multi-generational living

Arguably this still improves the housing situation overall (slightly), if the grandmother was previously living somewhere else.

Re: Abundance isn't going to happen unless politicians are scared of the status quo

#539
post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with this. I've also lived in SF for the last 30 years and by my lights a simpler, more effective policy would be to roll up the red carpet that was rolled out to tech companies. I don't consider the problem to be one of inadequate supply. I consider the problem to be one of excessive demand from one class of higher-compensation workers more-insulated from market forces (tech workers) out-competing anot…

This is so ridiculously naive. It's happening in every single major city in America.

Every major city in America is America's internet tech hub and has the highest property values in America? "Every major city in America" includes San Francisco, but it also includes Detroit. You want to think about that again?
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