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Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

plausible.io

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Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#531
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's literally not a place in the world (except for Canada and Australia) that shares as many common values with the US as Europe. I just don't think that's true. Europeans seem much more collectivist, whereas the US is more individualist. That's why Europeans express disdain for US policies around healthcare, guns, etc. Europeans express a tremendous amount of disdain for the US online, calling Americans fat, du…

> How would you feel if an American insulted your leader with a derogatory nickname such as "Agent Orange"? Europeans are so used to expressing disdain for the US that they hardly even notice themselves doing it. This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow E…

>This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow Europeans.

So how does it make you feel? Does it make you want to send troops to America's next Iraq?

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a weird attitude among European elites where on the one hand, they point out how European countries have always been in a subservient position within the American sphere of influence, but then, instead of cheering that this era is ending, they seem to be all upset about it and want their collar to be put back on. Help me understand this. To me it seems that maybe the interests of EU elites differ from the in…

I don't recognize this attitude at all. But I'm no elite anywhere. Thinking about it, it's not so weird? We beat the nazis together, we've generally enjoyed world peace, freedom, and the joys of neocolonialism. Things were sailing along just fine. Now things are all weird and fucked up and we have to worry about fucking russia, defense spending in general, the fate of greenland, cloud computing and all that shit? Put…

> We beat the nazis together

If you by "we" mean Britain, the United States, and Russia. And by "we" mean the people living 2 generations earlier, then I agree with your statement.

As a side note, people who were 18 in 1940, would be 103 today. So most people who fought in the second world war have unfortunately passed away.

I personally would never say "We beat the nazis together". The only thing I did was benefit from the war that generations before me have won.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#533
post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also be that the US have a person in power who is clearly out of his element.

I find that hard to believe. There have been incompetent US presidents before. This isn't incompetence, this is strategy. Malicious strategy perhaps, but it seems very unlikely to be non-deliberate.

I literally don’t know anyone who thinks your President is smart. He never said anything that’s insightful and worth discussing.

The press in your country is worthless for taking anything he says seriously. They’re either too afraid or too partisan to do their job on a level that’s acceptable in other western countries.

It’s very clear he’s a puppet that is being used to execute the plans of the Heritage Foundation. He gets carte blanche to take action on a few of his grudges and he’s free to line his own pockets. He’s basically a toddler that’s cooperating because of an ice cream.

Even his fake tan reminds of the cliché toddler photo. Minus the pasta.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are literally citing material that compares as race segregated US to other countries as wholes. Yes, the claim is that apparently low US scores have more to do with US racial composition than a problem with the US educational system. That's the point? I hedged with "seems to have pretty good education outcomes" because I'm not sure about the racial composition of Europe for 3rd+ generation immigrations. My expec…

I don't have you pecked as a Trump supporter. Also, the US only has two parties - so a lot of people are voting because of a lack of better alternatives. This is wildly different than the EU where most countries have a much more nuanced political landscape. Eg. Germany that has 7 parties. As such I also know that politics in US is more akin to a sports match than what I consider politics in - and this is congruent to…

>English is not my first language

Try using Google Translate or a European equivalent? You can write in your native language and translate into English. Using a translator could help you understand my points better, as well.

>You seem completely oblivious to the fact that more than half listed stock globally is US - and that this is a marketplace. Ie. not only US capital.

Yes, I'm aware that US stocks are overvalued. I don't see the relevance to our discussion. A correction was inevitable in my opinion.

>I appreciate you don't want to be in that position. That you want to be a part of an underdog country. But you are not.

First, it's not about being an underdog. It's about having free and equal relations, free association between nations that respect each others' sovereignty.

In any case -- If you respected US sovereignty, you would respect my opinion, as a US citizen, that we need a more Swiss foreign policy.

We have no obligation to stand in our current place in the global scene. Our current place was the decision of a previous generation of politicians. We're a democracy. We're allowed to vote, and change our policy. You can't coerce us into being an empire with your words. That's absurd.

If you wish to persuade me that the pre-2016 arrangement was good for the US, you're welcome to respectfully make your case for that. You're not doing that. Your condescending attitude is exactly the thing I'm arguing against, and exactly why I think the idea of "US-Europe shared values" is overrated.

>And hopefully you can develop some humility to the fact.

You are a foreigner commenting on US politics telling me that I, as a US citizen, need to be humble in my views of US policy. It's wild to me that Europeans will talk this way, then turn around and complain that Elon Musk is "influencing European elections".

Imagine if Elon said Europeans "need to be humble, appreciate their position, and keep buying Teslas". How would you feel?

The difference between you and I is: I recognize that Europeans have free association, and they are free to buy whatever products they want. I think it is silly to boycott the US over Ukraine, when the US has been one of Ukraine's biggest supporters. I'd say you should start by boycotting countries such as Brazil which have provided almost no support at all. The vast majority of countries have provided no support: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-s...

But, I recognize that you're a free individual making free choices for yourself -- same as us Americans are. So, buy what you like. Boycott what you like. I may think it is silly. But it's your decision, and I respect that.

This needs to be foundational for our discussion. If we say the partnership isn't working for us, you need to respect that instead of give us a lecture on our ignorance and our need for humility. Simple.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#535
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important distinction is that US and EU interests aligned on many important areas up until recently. So it was less of a subservient relationship, and more of a mutually beneficial one. Now that the US wants to turn it into a subservient relationship, the EU is naturally looking for other options.

No, Europe is a de facto vassal state to US since WW2. What Europe didn’t understand or didn’t want to understand was the US agenda differs from Europe agenda , always has. But now they start to wake up facing this reality.

> Europe is a de facto vassal state to US since WW2

OP's point is this nonsense rhetoric doesn't make sense with European frustration with American retrenchment.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#536
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you feel if an American insulted your leader with a derogatory nickname such as "Agent Orange"? Europeans are so used to expressing disdain for the US that they hardly even notice themselves doing it. This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow E…

>This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow Europeans. So how does it make you feel? Does it make you want to send troops to America's next Iraq?

It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. My political opinions are instead based on the political positions, trend, instability & recently insanity of America.

If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves. Just look at something like Reddit - I'm guessing at least half the comments are AI generated these days, if not more.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#537
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow Europeans. So how does it make you feel? Does it make you want to send troops to America's next Iraq?

It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. My political opinions are instead based on the political positions, trend, instability & recently insanity of America. If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves. Just look…

>It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with.

OK, well, can you understand if some of your countrymen didn't wish to send troops to America's next Iraq, due to the xenophobia they experienced?

That's just human nature regardless of what country you're from. That's what I've been trying to explain.

You know that in the US, conservatives are over-represented in the military. If the US does fight Russia, they will be the ones dying for you. Driven by a sense of American patriotism that Europe loves to belittle. It just doesn't make any sense.

>If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves.

I don't believe it's manipulation. Europeans have been anti-American for as long as I can remember. I don't think it is just an internet thing. But yes, it is ironic that lots of Europeans (in this thread even) post, and vote on comments, in more or less the way they would post if they were being paid by Russia.

In any case, if we're going to disregard the internet, why not disregard my comments too? Maybe I'm an AI bot. Or maybe you'd find me to be nice and wonderful if we were interacting in person :-)

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#538
post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't just a "partner", it does the vast majority of spending among NATO countries, even though NATO is an alliance that Europe benefits from way more: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/... I'm not in principle opposed to this sort of altruism in US foreign policy. I just don't want to have an altruistic foreign policy towards people that resent me. For people who resent me, I want fa…

This is not altruism. This strange american "look how we suffer for you"-thing is just utterly weird. Why do you think the US has global power projection capabilities? Why do you think they can control world trade? Why is the dollar still the reserve currency? The military "altruistic" peacekeeping is a major benefit, from better access to trade agreements to bases everywhere and military support from dozens of count…

I don't want to project power globally. I don't want to control world trade. I don't want to have bases everywhere. I don't want to influence everywhere. I'm tired of this empire stuff. We aren't good at being an empire. We suck at it. I want to be a normal country, thanks. I'm tired of foreigners obsessively following our politics, offering their commentary, and resenting us no matter what we do. I want to be normal.

Switzerland is very wealthy without being a global empire. They are well-regarded and have more soft power than the US. Their currency is trusted. No one is telling them they have an obligation to support Ukraine. They have better relations with the EU. Their military is focused on self-defense. We should be more like Switzerland.

>Also, US military spending goes directly back into the US economy. This is absolutely not the same as paying other countries, it's a hidden, long-running stimulus for the MIC.

We could easily spend in a better way which also goes back into the economy -- for example, government healthcare, like Europeans are always bragging they have. Also, I don't want a massive military-industrial complex either. I favor peace.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't just a "partner", it does the vast majority of spending among NATO countries, even though NATO is an alliance that Europe benefits from way more: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/... I'm not in principle opposed to this sort of altruism in US foreign policy. I just don't want to have an altruistic foreign policy towards people that resent me. For people who resent me, I want fa…

We call a partner that spends the majority on an alliance, a partner. Just like Germany is a partner to italy, France, Spain and vice versa

If it's an equal partnership, each partner respects the right of the other to exit. If it's an equal partnership, both countries are equally sad if it ends, since both got equal benefit.

The US/Europe relationship fails both those criteria.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#540
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is the unification treaty. Yes, among other things. It is the "Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany", and thing it finally settles is WW2 and the subsequent temporary arrangements. > If you accept that as a peace treaty The ~1955 treaties between the respective occupying powers and West and East Germany separately, which ended most of the powers of occupation but could not formally end the Po…

How can you be an equal partner if you are occupied?

See, this gets to the point others have made in this thread. Your reasoning implies that you should be happy if the US pulls out of NATO and leaves Europe, since Europe would no longer be "occupied" and would thus be an "equal partner".

Europeans are just impossible to satisfy, from my perspective. They will complain no matter what the US does.

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