Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think one thing that is very different about software engineering is that it's the only form of engineering I'm aware of where a very substantial fraction of the people employed to do it lack basic fundamentals like "being able to do it". Most software engineers can't write a program without google. They can't remember basic facts about the language they use every day. They don't have a sense of what makes sense an…
>Most software engineers can't write a program without google. They can't remember basic facts about the language they use every day. How many years of experience do you have? and how many languages have you written code in? Include all languages where you tweaked or wrote even a single line of code.
“Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
531–540 of 543 posts
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#532Earlier quoted context omitted.
Must be why every company pays its fair share of taxes right?
What do you mean by 'fair'? Different jurisdictions have different tax rates.
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#533Earlier quoted context omitted.
People in the trades relatively speaking in the midwest are easily far more wealthy than engineers in the bay area, and they have no such delusions of grandeur seemingly. They seem to understand that an electrician is an electrician and an engineer is fungible. That is why many of these engineers are unionized as well because they understand labor is replaceable and needs to advocate for itself. The coasts have much…
1. The data absolutely does not show that midwestern tradesmen are wealthier than Bay Area engineers. 2. I agree that unions are useful, and you’re starting to see them (eg Alphabet Workers Union). There is definitely opportunity here. 3. I think your visions of non-grandeur are blinding you to the possibilities that others live life and advocate for themselves differently, without it being wrong. Sometimes change is…
You could have an indoor pool in a detached building. You could keep horses. You could have a 6 car garage. All the upgrades from the builder too. All for a song in comparison to a home a fraction of all that in the bay. I mean just start looking on zillow between these sorts of homes in say indiana or ohio and it is absurd the difference in cost of living. How much you'd have to pay to rent a tiny old boat on lake tahoe for the day vs buying a boat outright and even paying to winterize and store it in a yacht club on a great lake. SF country club fees vs midwest, literally exclusive fuck you old money rates vs only a couple thousand initiation fee for the same sort of course conditions and probably a nicer appointed newer constructed clubhouse in the midwest. Same is true for the private schools too, the nicest ones nationally recognized in the area can only charge so much because there's just so many people with kids and wealth in the private school market so they aren't absolutely stupid like in the bay. Even the public schools go up to bat with those in some districts.
I don't think "the data" you might cite are considering all of these factors of the lived experience. Maybe one or two economic indicators but not how life actually plays out with even the half dozen or so things I've laid out above.
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#534Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you mean by 'fair'? Different jurisdictions have different tax rates.
You say shenanigans don't really happen, I posit they are routine in business and consultants are paid a lot of money to uncover the next shenanigan every day. The law is always lagging the action it is designed to stymie and we certainly don't have a utopia going on outside the window today.
Where did I say that? There are definitely people who straight up break the relevant laws and don't pay their taxes.
Of course, whether someone breaks a law or not, is an issue independent of 'fairness'. But I don't know what you mean by 'fair'.
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#535Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#536Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think maybe this misses the mark. Yes software can lead to unbounded complexity unlikely many physics based engineering disciplines. However, at the end of the day, there is an input and output and compute and memory needed to run the thing and if we look at that we realize, we never actually left the bounded physical realm and we can still engineer software systems against real world constraints. We can judge its…
>However, at the end of the day, there is an input and output and compute and memory needed to run the thing and if we look at that we realize, we never actually left the bounded physical realm and we can still engineer software systems against real world constraints. We can judge its efficiency and breaking points. This is a common sense view of computation that's unfortunately wrong. The simplest counter example is…
If I was designing a software system, I could introduce a time constraint. An imagined conversation: "How long will it take to get an answer? Between half a second and the heat death of the universe. OK. Can we just issue a timeout error after 1 second?"
This is putting controls in place so the system doesn't exceed its constraints and although hypothetical it might be able to do a job for any input, it can't because we haven't been able to find a more efficient solution for certain known and unknown scenarios.
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#537Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even before you hit big scale, there's a lot of boring work that great engineers won't want to do. And what really makes someone a great engineer is the ability to transform a hard problem to something regular engineers can handle the rest of. So I agree that 10x engineers are real and it's often 2 out of 12, but all-star teams don't work, which is why those people often get moved to run new teams/projects instead.
The reason people aren't motivated to do boring work is because of a poor culture of ownership, it has nothing to do with skill or "10x" stuff. Having a team of only great people allows a much deeper culture of ownership and its much easier to get people to work on the boring stuff. Allstar teams absolutely work and are the best way to work.
People who describe themselves as "great" feel such work is beneath one and know there's only so many hours on earth. Easier to pay a grunt to do that instead. And hence power dynamics are established.
That ego alone is why a team of only "great" engineers is bound to fail. You have a bunch of strong but negative polarity magnets trying to stick together. It simply won't be allowed.
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#538Earlier quoted context omitted.
This might be a definitions issue, but my assertion is not that a "great engineer" is someone who can complete leetcode hards in 15 minutes for 8 hours in a row without stopping. My assertion is that about 1 in 5 people have 5-10x the business impact of the median software developer, and if you are recruiting or managing a team you should have the goal of having your team be entirely composed of these top quintile fo…
Some years ago, Google published a paper whose conclusion was that high-trust teams were the most productive - not the ones with the 10x developers. This obsession with the "great man" theory as applies to software is harmful to software engineering.
It's a shame some can't apply such metaphors tk humans and think "no, sure, there are single processors thst outperform entire distributed networks" we're different".
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#539Fuck this constant dehumanisation and categorisation of the working class. The key to a great team is great leadership. Most people are terrible leaders, and they think that what they are worth is what makes them leadership material, even though they didn’t earn that worth themselves and didn’t put in a hard graft. The key to a great team is a fucking team. Only then can there be a leader. Let’s talk about ‘normal’ C…
I agree with your intent to introduce the angle of leadership and in particular the CEOs since it is well established that people can't properly evolve and thrive under a leadership that is rotten. Having said that, there is also something to be said about engineers who consistently cave into management pressure not because of brute force management tactics, but because the engineers themselves haven't spent the effo…
It doesn't happen very often, but when it does...
It's never an execution problem, it's a management.
Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams
#540I like this article particularly because I think the trope that there's something unique and different about software engineering is pretty toxic, both to we people in the field and people looking to employ people in the field. These days it feels a bit like another well known toxic field, finance, in that people conflate an outsized leverage for personal valor. It's laudable to do your work well and go home to the r…
Software is different. All other engineering disciplines are ultimately limited to building things in (at most) 3 euclidean dimensions. There is only so much junk you can hide in a finite volume of space. Code by comparison lives in hyperbolic space [0] and you can hide _anything_ in such a space without it being obvious. This is exemplified by the unpleasant discovery all of us have had of a supposedly peripheral fo…