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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#531

Post by [deleted] »

dragonwriter wrote: post #504
lfmunoz4 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember what happened when Russia tried to install missiles in Cuba? The USA put its foot down and was willing to have a nuclear war. Same thing is happening in Russia, making Ukraine part of NATO is just too close. Why is it so hard for people to understand this?

> making Ukraine part of NATO is just too close. Ukraine (after abandoning efforts after the MAP rejection -- done at Russia's insistence -- in 2008) only started looking at NATO membership again after Russia invaded, so it is ludicrously disconnected from reality (but exactly representative of Russian propaganda!) to try to use that to justify the invasion.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#533

Post by ImJamal »

openasocket wrote: post #400
egberts1 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How do you intend to conduct an election during an active war when 20% of the country, over 3 million Ukrainians, are under Russian occupation? Do they just not get to vote?

Plenty of countries have held elections during war, including war in their country. The US (civil war), Iraq and Afghanistan during the US occupation, Japan (WW2), etc.

I know it can be a challenge, but it has been done.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#534

Post by s1artibartfast »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #518
s1artibartfast wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "wmd equivalent" is the idea that Russia will move on Berlin if they're not contained in Ukraine. I think the idea that the Budapest memorandum is a US security guarantee here's another comparable lie.

Unlike the wmd lie which was generated completely by the USA, all of Europe seems pretty concerned to the point they just approved another 650 billion in debt TODAY, something Europe REFUSED to do for what 40 years? Because X happened in the past does not mean that Y is X. Only people reaching hard to push an agenda would claim any similarity.

I think both are similar in that they obfuscate real discussion on the purpose of war and tradeoffs.

If the goal is to be global police, that is a conversation worth having. Same if the goal is to show solidarity with our EU allies for its own sake. I think these other topics are manufactured consent.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#535

Post by card_zero »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #524
throwaway48476 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phone was a domestic politics issue. Actual Russian assets exist, people like Jackson Hinkle and Tim Pool. Trump generally doesn't fit the mold.

A good method is to make predictions based on an assumption. A month ago, a CRAZY prediction of actions if Trump was a Russian agent would be: Active attempts to remove Zelinsky. Stop all aid. Remove sanctions on Russia. Stop are cyber activity and planning of such against Russia. Trump has done all of the above (well he's only ordered the removing of sanctions as of today).

Would Russian oil, which I seem to remember is heavy in grade, replace Canadian oil, which I hear is similarly heavy, in US refineries, explaining the 25% tariff on Canada which is implausibly supposed to be about fentanyl controls?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#536

Post by honkycat »

kelipso wrote: post #291
herculity275 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really sucks that "Saddam has WMDs" broke an entire generation of Americans into knee-jerk contrarianism regarding any global conflict US is involved in. What's the "WMD" equivalent here - what do you think the media is lying to you about? That there's an ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is something all involved parties acknowledge.

There is absolutely no requirement that the US has to get involved in every regional conflict in the world. Let the Ukrainians and Russians deal with their mess. There are plenty of other regional conflicts we ignore.

The Russians are stealing their rare and valuable resources so they can gouge our long term allies.

Trillions of dollars in essential rare earth materials and natural gas isn't worth fighting for? Then why EVER go to war?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#537

Post by Izkata »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #23
_ra61 wrote: post #3

[flagged]

Interesting analysis. The shadow of the Iraq & Afghan wars looms large over current events and shouldn't be underestimated. And of course, those wouldn't have happened without 9/11. That one event seems to have led the US to begin to self destruct.

The "new party" shift began at least as far back as 2016. People generally don't seem to know when Bernie Sanders dropped out, a lot of his supporters switched to Trump, not another Democrat. Both were viewed as outsiders, an "anything is better than the establishment" candidate.

(Wanted to put this as a reply to GP but it's currently [flagged][dead] so this seems to be the most relevant reply...)

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#538

Post by [deleted] »

skeletal88 wrote: post #372
insane_dreamer wrote: post #32

while pausing the “aid” may save the US gov money; the money was mostly coming back to the US anyway in the form of weapons purchases. NYT: > The order takes effect immediately and affects more than $1 billion in arms and ammunition in the pipeline and on order. Mr. Trump’s directive also halts hundreds of millions of dollars in aid that Kyiv can use only to buy new military hardware directly from U.S. defense compan…

And everyone in Europe will want our governments and armies to stop buying stuff made in the US, especially weapons and ammo. Why support your country with our money if you don't want to support us at all? Your defence companies will face huge losses because of this.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#539

Post by [deleted] »

layer8 wrote: post #497
lfmunoz4 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember what happened when Russia tried to install missiles in Cuba? The USA put its foot down and was willing to have a nuclear war. Same thing is happening in Russia, making Ukraine part of NATO is just too close. Why is it so hard for people to understand this?

How is that related to the comment you’re replying to?

[deleted]

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#540

Post by jopsen »

generic92034 wrote: post #455
xg15 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely been more than three weeks. As someone who lives in the EU and has the same kind of relatives, what I find frustrating is how little actual engagement with the Russian narratives there is from official sides. There is presented "evidence" for US influence in Ukraine long before the war, like the Victoria Nuland video, yet there seems to be no attempts at debunking those arguments, short of a catch-all…

Countering pushed narratives with facts and arguments is a complete failure. It does not reach the emotional core, which is "us versus them".

Wasn't that what we the west did during the cold war?

Is it not just that media is more fragmented and we've underfunded the fact providing media since?

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