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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#531

Post by brigadier132 »

gretch wrote: post #523
brigadier132 wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fair is what two consenting adults agree to in the market place. This has been known to not be true since capitalism was first conceived. I am the biggest free market capitalism proponent and what apple has on their app store is not free market capitalism, its pure rent seeking. Apple users should be able to decide what software and stores run on the device that they own.

> Apple users should be able to decide what software and stores run on the device that they own. They do decide, right when they buy their phone.

And since we live in a democracy with laws where Apple's current arrangement can be voted to be made illegal, we can also decide to force Apple to open their device ecosystem (which may already be illegal).

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#532

Post by ZoomerCretin »

DataDive wrote: post #519
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

American-manufactured automobiles bring in the majority of money to drive-thru restaurants too. Should they get a cut of drive-thru restaurants' revenue?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#533

Post by nomel »

riku_iki wrote: post #516
danShumway wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets brought up a lot in conversations about Apple. In one sense, I agree with it. Patreon is a rent-seeking middleman who abuses network effects. 100%. But the creators on Patreon who's income are going to be most affected by this don't care about which side of the debate is more likeable to you, and I'm kind of sick of pretending that policies that affect a huge swath of people (often people with limited optio…

I am wondering why Apple and Patreon even a thing in this market. Most of the content is distributed through Youtube, so Google can just step in, create patreon interface and cut both of them, get some extra revenue, and be a good guy.

Youtube already has this through channel membership subscriptions [1]. Billing is through web only.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/intl/en_uk/join/

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#534

Post by logifail »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #524
DataDive wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

> Importantly at one point he says that Apple lpatform brings in the most money to Patreon. I'm not surprised. The dirty little secret people won't talk about is that monetizing anything is so much easier on iOS because Apple users have, in some combination, more disposable income to offer, and are more willing to spend money. This has been the elephant in the room for my entire career, almost 11 years working in app…

> I don't want to get into that quagmire

I'm not sure it's a quagmire: iOS devices are more expensive compared with the competition. I don't think this is up for debate.

Given that, a null hypothesis might be that since their owners are happy to pay more for their device that they have more disposible income?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#535

Post by danShumway »

DataDive wrote: post #519
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

"a cut of that" is doing a heck of a lot of work here to handwave the amount they're asking for.

A "cut" in this case means such a high percentage of the transaction that if Patreon didn't pass the extra cost on to consumers/creators, they would make negative dollars on each iOS subscription. That really genuinely does not strike you as odd at all?

It doesn't strike you as weird or maybe like a possibly negative market effect that Patreon as a platform should be more profitable for Apple than it is for Patreon? I think most people would say that's a signal that something might be going wrong.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#536

Post by lapcat »

baby_souffle wrote: post #491
brookst wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? I'll bite, kind of. People get emotional about particular companies so let's abstract them away: is it possible for a second-tier distributor to bring more value to a first-tier distributor than the first-tier brings to suppliers? Looking at it that…

> The economics would suggest that Patreon should do away with their iOS app, focus iOS users on the web, and everyone would be ahead. Apple doesn’t let web apps do everything that native apps can do. Their App Store is the only way people get apps on their device and if a search for ‘patreon’ in the App Store returns nothing, that’s a lot of confused or angry people that are going to wonder what their monthly bill i…

> Their App Store is the only way people get apps on their device and if a search for ‘patreon’ in the App Store returns nothing, that’s a lot of confused or angry people that are going to wonder what their monthly bill is for.

I just searched the App Store for Patreon:

The top hit was an ad for Ashley Madison. Seriously.

The second hit was the Patreon app.

The third hit was ChatGPT for some reason.

But if the Patreon app was not in the App Store, no doubt there would be a bunch of scammers trying to pose as the official Patreon app.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#537

Post by nomel »

TheKarateKid wrote: post #490
baby wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hate how the current pattern is 1. Download seemingly cool app on iOS (free with potential payments) 2. Go through a 30min quizz 3. Required to subscribe for $150/year to start using the app It’s not free, it’s false advertising

Funny how UX only matters to Apple when it doesn't cost them $$

They added "in app purchases" indicators in the store for this. I use it all the time. "In app purchases" on something that claims it's free is not free.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#538

Post by FredPret »

kelnos wrote: post #413
FredPret wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beauty of capitalism is that you can choose. You don't even have to have a smartphone at all and if you decide to have one, you don't HAVE to have an Apple device. There are countless other brands to pick. If you truly hate the 30% thing, then don't buy an iPhone.

I don't have any Apple devices, but as a Patreon customer, I'm going to be affected by this requirement that Apple is forcing upon Patreon. The entire point of this article is that Apple is abusing their market power to force other companies to do things that affect people who are not even Apple customers. But regardless, your argument is laughably wrong. We don't have "countless other brands". We have iOS and Androi…

Patreon built their organization partly on how easy it is to get donations from Apple users through the app ecosystem. As an Apple user, I personally spend a lot more on apps every month than in my pre-Apple days because it feels secure, easy, and premium.

So even as a non-Apple user, you benefited from Apple's system. The same is true for Patreon, and for the content creators.

As for your complaints about the dearth of ecosystems, I guess the rest of the world can only apologize to you for not pouring even more hundreds of billions of dollars into developing an ecosystem that fits your requirements * just so *. (By the way, I was talking about phone brands, nice work shifting the goalposts)

> Anyway, any time someone suggests "don't have a smartphone at all" as an alternative, my respect for their opinion drops to zero.

Well, I am devastated. But "no smartphone" is indeed one of the options, as is "Apple smartphone", "Samsung smartphone", "flip-phone", and many others. Can't find one that is perfect in every way? Welcome to the real world.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#539

Post by nabla9 »

jdiez17 wrote: post #497
nabla9 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they respond Apple changes policy for EU users, not for anyone else. Already users based in the European Union with an iPhone have the ability to install apps using alternative app marketplaces or web distribution, in addition to the App Store.

Is that so? I’ve been waiting to try app sideloading but haven’t seen any app repositories or so that work with the app marketplace APIs

Yes. It has been just few months. It takes some time to catch up.

Mobivention (b2b specialized) https://app-marketplace.eu/

AltStore https://altstore.io/#Downloads

Sometime in the future, Epic Games Store, MacPaw’s Setapp

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#540

Post by jachee »

bluGill wrote: post #338
theturtle32 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, imo is a solid argument for "fine then, we're just gonna pull our app and use mobile web exclusively."

Only if the users follow. If users decide they won't use the mobile web then patreon and the creators they represent lose. Nobody knows for sure, but there is a general belief that users will not follow (or at least enough won't follow).

If patreon pulls their app, and the former app users still want access to the content they patronized, they’ll go to wherever it is.
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