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Panic at the Job Market

matt.sh

531–540 of 1001 posts

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#531
post #25

I generally like the article but the author seems to have a really inflated view of what jobs are paying. At one point he’s claiming that a stable non tech company like a tractor manufacturer is paying 5k-10k. Even assuming that’s including taxes so divide by two, and constraining to just software employees for that claim. There is no way the average pay is nearly a million a year. The average software engineer in th…

The whole post is hyperbole with not much to add beyond interest rates go up and VC money goes down. Even including benefits, those numbers are wildly overinflated, certainly there are some individuals that make that number but I was always told that it was the unicorn OG engineers at google that were making $1mm+ total annual comp.

well if you're a technical person in the current economy it

It's decent enough resource that packs all the issues (except S178) into one convinient package to point to next time someone asks "why does the market suck". You can argue the hyperbole takes away, but it adds some engagement (the nightmare stories are probably not even that far from the truth, given my experiences).

If nothing else I was intrigued (but maybe am not 100% onboard) with the "hire the safe middle" process for modern interviewing. "Overqualified" is mostly a weasel term, but I can see it coming up from interviewers who truly do not understand top talent (note: I am very much not top talent).

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#532
I think the accounting change of software developer tax deductibility is a bigger deal than the interest rates

for startups sure, interest rate shock disrupted a major source of capital from VCs

for big companies employing the most and laying off the most, I think the accounting change is a bigger deal

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#533

The job market is weird. It seems there are more and more candidates on the market. However, whenever I recruit for senior roles, it seems the candidates are less and less skilled. This is highly anecdotal. The job post is the same: sr. java developer. Everyone has 5+ years of experience. I need someone who can: - explain in depth how a HashMap works - verbally pseudocode a program that solves a problem, where an ade…

> It seems the candidates mostly have experience with loading data from one data source, doing some transformation with no regard for performance, calling APIs, and storing data into another data source.

You may not like it, but for the vast majority of programming jobs globally, that is pretty much the whole job.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#534
post #512

Just like "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid", if you were smart enough to see all the problems in all your past jobs but those companies still went bankrupt, maybe you weren't actually the ideal employee you think you are. And if programming interviews are beneath you and only passed by your inferiors but you can't pay rent, maybe they're not actually so far beneath you. Using your l33t knowledge of AWS t…

> if you were smart enough to see all the problems in all your past jobs but those companies still went bankrupt, maybe you weren't actually the ideal employee you think you are. If you're smart enough to see all the problems but the company goes bankrupt, maybe are were actually just the ideal employee. For the vast majority of roles, tech and otherwise, hiring managers prefer to hire someone who'll ask questions li…

The dirty secret is that everyone can see the problems. But the first person to point them out becomes "the problem".

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#535
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a literal graph theorist, I cannot tell you how frustrating it is that (a) nobody seems to understand my work except (b) interviewers use it as a shibboleth to exclude people from jobs that will never need high performance graph algorithms. That, I never get called for these interviews because I don't use react angles or something, but if they did, I'd crush the interview and fall asleep at my desk once they start…

It is fun if you ever find yourself in this situation because you can play the uno reverse card on the interviewer and ask to clarify with impenetrable jargon and look for rising panic (can I assume the graph contains a Hamiltonian circuit? etc, etc)

Nah, when you do that, Murphy's law says that the interviewer will be the only person in the world working on extending nonstandard analysis to spectral hypergraph theory, and my attempt to snow them will reveal that I only have surface level understanding of the jargon I just emitted.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#536
post #512

Just like "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid", if you were smart enough to see all the problems in all your past jobs but those companies still went bankrupt, maybe you weren't actually the ideal employee you think you are. And if programming interviews are beneath you and only passed by your inferiors but you can't pay rent, maybe they're not actually so far beneath you. Using your l33t knowledge of AWS t…

What a cute take. As if seeing the problems and being given the authority to solve them always came in pairs.

My guess is you're one of the interviewers/employees he was talking about in the article.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#537
post #397

Well this was an entertaining take on the job market. tl;dr he's salty other people ended up better off doing the same work for other companies, based on views of tech compensation that are very divorced from reality: > I look at my own place in the world compared to people who just started at Apple or Microsoft 20 years ago then never left, and now they have made eight figures just over the past 4 years while my lif…

This guy is definitely giving delulu vibes but I think there's some truth to the idea that there are inequities in the market. People who work at FAANGs will often make more money and do less work than the foreign contractors in places like Poland and Ukraine getting paid $35k a year for the same work. It's worth talking about because I honestly don't understand why bay area engineers are paid 3 times as much as thei…

> People who work at FAANGs will often make more money and do less work than the foreign contractors in places like Poland and Ukraine getting paid $35k a year for the same work.

The reality is, it's almost never the same work.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#538
post #249

I will add my two cents for people who believe that this might be related only to the SWE and tangent industries: It's really not. I have many friends (in Europe) who are trying to get through to different jobs in unrelated industries ranging from finance to fashion, or just trying to get promoted vertically (or horizontally), failing rather miserably. Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideratio…

> Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideration your particular profile or the contributions you can make. This is really key. I have applied for jobs before, and then get questions like: "what's your experience with C++ or advanced graph algorithms?". Only that, none of that shows up in my profile or resume. But they act surprised and completely shrug off how a decade of software and other relev…

I found a job as a developer after about 10 months of applying for 100 jobs per month. It was very weird this time round. Especially weird considering that my resume is exceptional (lots of experience; corporate, startup, back end, front end, full stack, distributed systems, open source). The list of technologies that I'm competent with is long and, for most of them, I've got open source projects to prove my claims. Air tight situation.

This time round, employers had all kinds of weird esoteric requirements which made no sense.

For example, I applied for a job where I matched every single technology in their stack (and it was a long list), I even had proven experience in 'Web Components' which was still niche in a professional setting (most jobs are still React, Vue, etc...) Anyway, they ended up rejecting me with the explanation "The head of engineering is very particular, even though this position is Node.js/JavaScript, he likes to hire candidates who have a background in C#." There was no mention of this on the job advert! Besides, I did use C# full time for 2 months during the summer break while at university which I mentioned after she seemingly invented this requirement but she responded 'He likes candidates who started with C#.'

There is no way they would find anyone who meets all of these requirements who also happen to know this completely unrelated technology.

Anyway, after 1 year, out of 1000+ applications I submitted, I got about 5 phone screens with recruiters and 2 interviews with actual company insiders.

The first company Founder I interviewed with seemed keen to hire me at first and kept leading me on; but they always waited for me to ask them about the next stage in the process before actually proceeding... They kept half-ass ghosting me until the last phase and then I was like "They can't be serious about hiring me" and I stopped asking about the next phase.

My sister works in HR and she told me that I only needed to match about 60% of tech requirements to get a job. It didn't correspond at all with my observations of reality...

Putting 2-and-2 together, it seems like they were giving all these high paying jobs to beginners and tossing experienced candidates' resumes in the trash... Probably the HR leads were not even seeing the resumes of experienced candidates coming in.

It all seems kind of conspiratorial if you ask me.

Another weird thing that happened (going 2 years back and which led me to being unemployed) is that the startup I was working for was getting very few job applications when I applied. They were super keen to hire me and I got a big salary, share package, everything... Then 6 months in, candidate applications started pouring in by the thousands... After sifting through thousands of applications, they managed to hire an absolute weapon; this guy was not only sharp, but he was churning out maybe 1K lines of code per day. Really impressive. I had not seen anyone code that fast before. He built features really quickly. I was doing peer reviews for the whole team, which was hard work and essential at the time, especially with code being churned out at that rate! Anyway I was laid off because the founders didn't see the value of my PR code reviews.

They didn't understand how important it was to have someone looking over this superhuman code churning to keep complexity under control. Multiple times, I saved the front end from memory leaks and rogue setInterval/setTimeout which were unnecessary or not cleaned up properly (among many other issues). Sigh. I feel like this situation would have been a startup founder's dream, surely combining the massive development speed with the safety/de-risking I was adding was worth the tiny sub-% equity I was set to receive 4 months later... Sigh.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#539
post #516
post #25

I generally like the article but the author seems to have a really inflated view of what jobs are paying. At one point he’s claiming that a stable non tech company like a tractor manufacturer is paying 5k-10k. Even assuming that’s including taxes so divide by two, and constraining to just software employees for that claim. There is no way the average pay is nearly a million a year. The average software engineer in th…

I think he was just using hyperbole for effect. Also to annoy people probably.

> Also to annoy people probably.

Given how many comments this thread has, I suspect he achieved his goal

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#540
post #512

Just like "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid", if you were smart enough to see all the problems in all your past jobs but those companies still went bankrupt, maybe you weren't actually the ideal employee you think you are. And if programming interviews are beneath you and only passed by your inferiors but you can't pay rent, maybe they're not actually so far beneath you. Using your l33t knowledge of AWS t…

The way he talks and the way you talk are cut from the same cloth.
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