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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#531

Post by okdood64 »

ken47 wrote: post #395
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

I've seen plenty of HN threads where good alternative processes were described. I'm not going to be exhaustive here: writing a program over a few hours that is reflective of the kind of work that the company actually does, coming up with and debating the architecture of a system, mock code reviews, etc. You might say these don't scale as well as standardized testing of university classical algorithms knowledge. The g…

> they have also begun to deemphasize classical algorithms in their interview process

Can you elaborate?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#532

Post by clusterhacks »

10xDev wrote: post #466

What is interesting is that now with all the layoffs we also have more CS graduates than ever [0] who were told that tech companies are struggling to find candidates to fill their vacancies. We are reaching a point, if not already at the point where we will have bunch of unemployed CS grads who will have to make a pivot into something entirely different. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d22/tables/dt22_322.10.…

You may be interested in looking at the current Taulbee survey[1] - it surveys PhD granting CS and CE programs and collects MS and BS degree numbers as well.

I also found [2] that shows "computer and information science" graduates having a higher-than-average unemployment rate than other degrees. In 2018.

My anecdotal experience over the last 15 years as a person on the hiring side of the table is that my organization has received multiple qualified applicants for our open positions, several of who are almost always new CS grads looking for their first job. And my organization is in an area with multiple companies that hire software engineers and we typically pay somewhat below market. That experience makes me question if there is now (or even has been in that 15 years) an actual shortage of candidates for these types of jobs.

  [1-pdf] https://cra.org/crn/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2023/05/2022-Taulbee-Survey-Final.pdf
  [2-pdf] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_sbc.pdf

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#533

Post by lazide »

twh270 wrote: post #262
otikik wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

"Your job is not safe" does not mean you should do everything possible to keep your job -- allowing yourself to be unfairly exploited and abused. It means that you need to be responsible for yourself, and not allow thoughts like "I'm a valuable employee", or "I have too much seniority", or "my manager and I get along great" to convince you management won't lay you off or fire you or that they owe you anything. As oth…

A key thought as well, in my experience:

- never assume that just because it’s obvious to you (and your coworkers and boss) that it would be really stupid to lay you off or fire you, that they wouldn’t do it anyway.

A lot of what is going on IMO is burnout and disconnection from the on the ground reality at the executive layer.

That means short sighted, stupid, long term self harming decisions.

But just because what someone is doing is clearly stupid, doesn’t mean they won’t do it. A hard lesson to learn sometimes.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#534

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

renewiltord wrote: post #520
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

You are absolutely correct. This discussion is pointless. When you have a 10k org you cannot allow ad-hoc methods because there are unscrupulous actors: people will sell the job, there will be nepotism, and discrimination. Hiring at scale with some bar of quality needs industrial processes. That's a real constraint of the system. Any alpha gets ruthlessly optimized away. Referrals? Now sold for split. GitHub Open Sou…

> Hiring at scale with some bar of quality needs industrial processes.

Sounds kinda logical, but is it really?

It's not like BigCorp only has one guy doing the interviewing for 100's of positions. You're interviewing for a job on a team regardless of company size, and presumably what matters to them is whether you are a good fit for the need they have on their team, not whether you pass some industrial scale screening test.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#535

Post by cmrdporcupine »

ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

Having worked there I agree on some points. I thought the interview process was bullshit.

But, people generally work there for two reasons:

Pay and benefits top-knotch. I made two times there what I'm making now, post-Google, and I'm still making more 30% than my peers who work in-office for local companies do. (I work remote). Free food and other perks were also amazing.

Exposure to really large systems and scale. A lot of people really get off on building systems that scale as big as some of the Google stuff.

And honestly the internal engineering quality at Google is excellent. But conservative, and bespoke. They build their own everything, which they can do because they have buckets of cash. And what they build is mostly superior, and more consistently engineered. The internal code quality is generally meticulous.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#536

Post by HDThoreaun »

mc32 wrote: post #458
paxys wrote: post #452

Are layoffs becoming an annual thing in tech now? Last year there was the "macroeconomic conditions" excuse that every company used. How are they justifying this round?

It’s still macro. The media has been peddling the idea that things are rosy economically but that’s not people are seeing and experiencing. December’s CPI is through the roof. The economy has been soft and with ZIRP gone, things are adjusting accordingly. We’re now paying the piper —a little.

Inflation ticked up to 3.4%, it's not through the roof. Real wages are up. The economy is absolutely doing very well for some people.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#537

Post by okdood64 »

TrackerFF wrote: post #41

Well, hopefully there's a silver lining to all this: Talented and underappreciated engineers (or those just caught in the crossfire of shitty policies) will go on and start new, more exciting companies.

> and start new, more exciting companies

Which what money?

With these interest rates and Section 174, it's pretty rough out there to start one as compared to ~6 years ago.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#539

Post by mu53 »

dodiggity32 wrote: post #511
throwaway_iusa wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work remotely for a big US company and I have heard talk of similar plans within the company, offshoring entire products' engineering work to India. Luckily my work is very niche (vuln research). I can only imagine the subpar and vulnerability ridden code we'll be seeing over the next few years from all the offshoring + irresponsible overusage of AI tools.

Why would the code be subpar? Is a google employee in US somehow more competent than the one in India? What you are thinking about was outsourcing which is very different than Google hiring in India. Just because you are paid more you are not a ‘better’ programmer

if you hyperfocus on one aspect, sure, they have a bad argument

Its not like this off-to-on shore oscillation has never happened before

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#540

Post by cmrdporcupine »

kyrra wrote: post #490
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

I joined Google 11 years into my career. So while I had taken an algorithms class recently, I just reread the algorithm book I used in college and spent a bunch of time studying all of them. I actually found it a lot of fun, as it was a good refresher for myself.

The problem is it only works for a certain personality and thinking type that can do that under pressure in front of an interviewer. Most of us who have been in the industry for a while solve algorithm problems by working in an editor or REPL, and do so in a solitary way, with time to pause and think.

The Google-style process (that so many people copied) acts as if the ability to do that kind of thinking under time pressure and in front of a generally-elitist interviewer is some kind of marker of the ability to work on the job. It isn't.

Plus I worked at Google for a decade and the amount of times I had to do actual algorithm/data structure fundamental stuff was about 0. 90% of Googlers are wiring existing crap together, and if they stray outside of that they'll get spanked in a code review anyways.

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