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The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

afterbabel.com

531–540 of 937 posts

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#531

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> Haidt's claims about a teen mental health epidemic have been pretty convincingly debunked [...] It's quite probable that there is no teen mental health crisis. I don't see how you can reach this conclusion when it's very clear in the data that hospitalizations for teens due to self-harm has gone up significantly. Are you suggesting that hospitals are not now or were not previously correctly reporting this data?

Self harm is a behaviour, not a disorder. There isn't a predictable relationship between the rate of self harm and the rate of underlying psychiatric pathology. We have reasonable evidence to suggest that self harm tends to be socially contagious, occurring in socially-connected clusters rather than consistently across the population; young people whose friends engage in self-harm are dramatically more likely to enga…

A fair counterargument, but I think that the line delineating "psychiatric pathology" is not as clear as you imply. Many such pathologies are arguably socially constructed and sometimes even contagious in similar ways (see the book "Crazy Like Us").

I think "being vulnerable to social contagion to an extent that leads you to literally inflict harm on yourself" is definitely within the scope of being classified as a psychiatric pathology, even if it hasn't been yet. It seems like there's little difference between this and, say, anorexia.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running clubs and associations and churches and any nonprofit oriented community organization is hard work. Throw more parties. That’s one solution. It’s not easy either, but it isn’t pure hedonism. It’s creating real social bonds. And it takes real work!! Underappreciated.

Throw more parties Ok. So what do poor people do? Or folks living in spaces too small for such things?

Arrange for people meet up in a bar. There are meaningful costs to social organization, though. Important to note.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#534

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Why do you assert that onlineness doesn't affect women disproportionately? Women face all sorts of abuse and minimization online. I've heard of many women using male sounding names online in order to be taken seriously or avoid harassment. The general advice on subreddits dominated by women is to turn off personaal messaging to avoid the inevitable rape threats. Take a look on Instagram and take a look at some musici…

While all of that is true, nobody hates women like other women. Men are just way more conspicuous and aggressive about it. Women conceal their abuse through rhetoric and political games. Everyone is a girl, online. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37469575

I'm trying to comprehend the point of your comment, particularly how it relates to the article you linked. If nobody hates women but women, but we're all women online... where does that leave us?

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#535

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> Not sure if we can ever go back to that without some major catastrophe. We easily can. With the network effect, we can just encourage everyone we know that socializing with real people in real life is important and set up some coffees, lunches, dinners, walks, board games, etc, and then encourage those people to do the same with the people they know. Won't take very many hops to reach everyone this way and get back…

The issue I’ve been seeing in wealthy industrialized countries, is that people are becoming poorer as they grow older, the prices of energy are rising, the prices of land are rising, so simply getting people together is less viable than even 20 odd years ago. The internet gives you an instant connection to people who have interests specific to you better than even an expensive international convention can do for esse…

>If you decide this is worth it anyways, well you’re going to end up financially behind somebody using the internet in a cheap apartment on undesirable land, and that is going to undermine you bit by bit. Money can't help you when you're dead, so if you don't use it to improve your life or someone else's, it doesn't help at all.

How is the depressed person living in an undesirable place ahead exactly?

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#536

Not just social media, but always online mentality. Spending all your time online gives you a skewed perception of the world and I believe being online always is a major negative. Spending time outside is good for you. Socializing with real people in front of you is good also. Not sure if we can ever go back to that without some major catastrophe.

> Not sure if we can ever go back to that without some major catastrophe. We easily can. With the network effect, we can just encourage everyone we know that socializing with real people in real life is important and set up some coffees, lunches, dinners, walks, board games, etc, and then encourage those people to do the same with the people they know. Won't take very many hops to reach everyone this way and get back…

>We easily can. With the network effect,

Sometimes I wonder if people read what they actually write?

What you're saying is you want everyone to disconnect and no longer be part of the network effect we're currently under.... This thinking seems to have a few flaws.

1. You have to remain within the supposed 'bad' network effect to broadcast your message. If you leave and go do your IRL things, you won't be there to broadcast your message (maybe bots doing it for you?).

2. You expect said networks to carry your message. You: "Lets all go outside", X: "Your message has been deleted due to violations of community standards".

3. You assume that being terminally online is not an addiction. That is just saying "Hey, lets go outside" has any effect on the vast majority of people that need to hear the message. Don't think of being on like smoking, it's not something you can just ban because it's part of life now. Think of it like eating, and how poorly that is going for the world at the moment with ever increasing obesity rates.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure if we can ever go back to that without some major catastrophe. We easily can. With the network effect, we can just encourage everyone we know that socializing with real people in real life is important and set up some coffees, lunches, dinners, walks, board games, etc, and then encourage those people to do the same with the people they know. Won't take very many hops to reach everyone this way and get back…

I think this is an issue of "can" in the "technically possible" vs "realistically possible". There are lots of people who have done exactly what you said, and others that never became terminally online, yet real-world re-adoption has been slow.

Technically possible: "We all stop eating too much and obesity drops"

Realistically possible: "Obesity levels keep going up"

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's are huge risk that we are about to realize that either social media cannot be made safe, at all, or that it has been made dangerous in order to make a profit. People have been screaming that at the top of their lungs for years.

But what do we do with that information? Un-invent social media, ban it? How would such a ban work and what should it cover? At this point I feel like we should pick a time in history, say the late 1930s or 1940s, somewhere around there, and use that as a frame of reference. Any new technology would be assessed based on the value added to average persons life, vs. the overall cost to society and the planet. Only if i…

> But what do we do with that information? Un-invent social media, ban it? How would such a ban work and what should it cover?

Decentralize it, so that nobody is able to make it more addictive for profit.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advertisements is a global phenomena. Advertisements are often made to make you depressed about your situation, so the more effective they are the more depressed people get.

Yeah that's the whole thing about advertising is it effectiveness scales with the feelings of inadequacy that it generates.

I generally get downvoted hard when I raise my hand as an advertiser, but here goes.

I think scapegoating advertising is a mistake, because I think we're missing the real problem.

Yes, advertising can and often is unethical and harmful. I can't speak for other advertisers, but I take ethics very seriously. I don't participate in advertising aimed at making problems seem bigger than they are for the sake of selling a product. It's effective (in terms of sales), but I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I did that.

But: What exactly changed about advertising around 2010 if we're going to say advertising is responsible for a radical decrease in mental health since that time?

On balance, I don't think advertisers today are less ethical than they ever were. The same bad actors exist. There are more laws today to prevent the worst abuses, but there are still ways to legally manipulate the public that I would consider horribly unethical.

Yes, we have access to more data. But from my perspective, I haven't seen data used effectively for much more than targeting, i.e. prioritizing ad budgets towards the people most likely interested in your product. It still makes me uncomfortable, but can that alone impact mental health at these levels? I don't think so.

And so my problem with scapegoating advertising isn't that it's unfair to advertisers. We deserve a lot of the vitriol sent our way. My problem with it is that if we're wrong in our diagnosis, the real problem(s) remain unchecked.

The vast majority of the people I know in advertising didn't want all this data in the first place. We were happy to just work on creative ideas, to try and paint a product in a new light so that the general public would take notice.

What changed is social media, and the social media companies themselves. I truly believe the problem is with engagement metrics and all the crap they do to keep people addicted. Advertisers, in turn, are forced to play the game, because it's the only game in town. If you're not advertising on social media, you might as well not exist. And if you don't play the engagement game, you might as well not be on there at all. It's a trap.

That's not to say there's no one in advertising who is genuinely content to do harm. They exist. They've always existed. But they didn't, and couldn't have, created the platforms and the algorithms that multiplied the problem since 2010.

Further, when I look at my own use on social media, the most toxic content isn't sponsored content or ads, it's stuff that's gone viral by content creators and political actors. It's "recommended content" that should have been flagged as wildly inappropriate rather than promoted for more engagement. Saying the problem is advertising misses all of that horrible stuff.

So again, not trying to say advertising is good for the soul. Not saying it's a net positive for society (although I think whether or not it's a positive has more to do with WHAT is being advertised than the act of advertising in it of itself).

But let's not mistake advertising as the cause of the mental health crisis, at least not without solid evidence to back that up. I don't think the evidence in the original post would support that conclusion at all.

Re: The teen mental illness epidemic is international (2023)

#540
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody except a very small minority of techno-nerds (and most of those not teenagers) was alawys online until about 15 years ago, the advent of the smartphone. It took easily another 5 years before a significant amount of teenagers had them, especially outside the richest countries. But of course it's not the technical capability that's the problem, it's the always-online culture , the network effects, the constant d…

Then why does this trend disproportionately affect girls? There is nothing particular special about “onlineness” that should affect them particularly worse than boys, but plenty of very real evidence that shows social media sites like IG are very harmful to girls (and meta knows it). There are plenty of millennials that have been terminally online since at least their early teens and weren’t showing this same trend.…

I don't know about other social media, but IG combines a culture of posting visual content with heavy use of face/body filters. If you're already feeling self-conscious about your body, this is a recipe for body image issues and self-hate. Girls were facing the same issue from advertising and the fashion industry in the pre-internet era, but now it's beamed directly to everyone's phone.
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