Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#531

Post by TobyTheDog123 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:00 PM UTC

abandonliberty wrote: post #501

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #401

This should be "hacked" by the regulator and not by the hackers. If they sold you a car with heated seats (so if the hardware is there), the heated seats should be available for the consumer to use.

So people should not have the option of paying less of paying less for less features? Everyone must pay for features that only a subset of customers use? You make a common argument that's deceptively anti-consumer. Yes, this can be abused - but that's a different argument.

>So people should not have the option of paying less of paying less for less features?

They should, it's called buying a different car without those features installed.

>Everyone must pay for features that only a subset of customers use?

You are already paying for those features upfront as part of buying the car - there is no recurring expense to the manufacturer. If you do not want or are unable to pay for those features, you buy a different car without them installed.

What you're arguing for is for everyone to have to pay another monthly subscription, and conflating "paying more for a car" with "paying monthly for non-consumable resources for a car".

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#532

Post by Swenrekcah » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:00 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #518

bigmofo wrote: post #513

I would have thought that EFF and FSF would be more active in trying to promote open source in automobiles for privacy, security and being able to repair and modify the vehicle. I would think that it would be rather mind blowing how much information is gathered by the new vehicles about oneself. I have enough money to buy any model of Tesla, but will not due to privacy, security and safety reasons. (I consider drive…

Sooner or later, some city is going to be held for ransom by a group that has disabled (or hijacked) all of the Teslas in it. "Give us a king's ransom or your roads will be clogged with immovable cars, and thus unusable, for weeks". Right now, there are not enough software-hijackable cars on the road for this to work, but that is changing. Once you have a critical mass of perhaps even just 5% of the cars, you can bri…

I do agree with the sentiment, but in this particular example if I were the local government I’d endure the pain for the 24-36 hours it’d take to get the inflicted vehicles gathered up and then simply ban them from driving until the manufacturer fixes the issue.

If I didn’t have the legal authority to do it I’d probably still do it and rather pay the damages than the ransom.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#533

Post by nobleach » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:00 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #274

mgiampapa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

The only hack on cable style TV I remember is you could buy modified satellite authentication cards for DirectTV for a time - usually on eBay or similar sites - and they worked. No idea how long, I had an uncle that had one though, got all the premium channels etc. I doubt any of this works anymore though

I worked for a cable company in the mid-90s. The amount of boxes that disappeared (and couldn't be located) was insane. The folks that procured them also used a "bullet blocker" (basically a resistor) to avoid the box being disabled.

In the satellite realm, DishNetwork was always the easier service to hack. The FTA scene was completely overrun with folks buying 3rd party tuners. Once Dish switched to an encrypted signal, a few vendors (nFusion if I recall) even could rotate keys in a matter of hours to decrypt Dish's new encryption schemes. I doubt any of that works these days simply because there's no reason to push too hard for content that is likely available via easier means.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#534

Post by omginternets » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:02 PM UTC

jabradoodle wrote: post #457

omginternets wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have a system in place for this: civil liability and criminal culpability. If you hack your car negligently, you can be sued for negligence or charged with manslaughter.

Same thing if you sell unsafe food, yet we have regulations, because it's preferable to not be killed in the first place.

And because the impact is exponentially larger. Arguments for regulation prohibiting individuals from tinkering with their cars does no such thing, because those laws are not currently in place, and there is not an epidemic of runaway user-modified vehicles.

On the other hand, such regulation would serve to prevent users from enjoying the property they purchased and to facilitate exploitative practices by manufacturers and retailers. It is all the more absurd given that existing law already provides mechanisms for deterrence and punishment, namely: the notion of negligence.

I cannot stress how terrible this idea is. This would severely degrade consumer rights and do virtually nothing to protect people.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#535

Post by hot_gril » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:02 PM UTC

lajamerr wrote: post #519

hot_gril wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between the second and the third?

Probably the same sentiment between DLC vs Expansions in gaming. But fundamentally no difference because you are getting a discounted price in exchange for the soft locked feature. So 2 and 3 are the same imo.

I'm not asking what's the conceptual difference, I just don't get what the two options are. Is #2 one-time purchase and #3 subscription?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#536

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:03 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #491

gruez wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, do you think that after someone has paid for 1 month of netflix, and downloaded their entire catalog to your phone for offline viewing, that all the videos "belongs to them and they should have full access"?

Yes, absolutely, if that were a feature the Netflix app allowed. Obviously it does not: your downloads expire after a certain amount of time, and if you cancel your subscription, you won't be able to get a key to decrypt the files. Companies are free to try to put restrictions on that sort of thing, but I think if customers are able to circumvent those restrictions (the DMCA anti-circumvention laws notwithstanding),…

[deleted]

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#537

Post by oatmeal1 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

chefandy wrote: post #63

rootusrootus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of a customer, what is the difference between a heated seat that doesn't work because it doesn't exist, and one that is locked out by software? Assuming the customer isn't paying up front for that feature. Some people don't want to pay for heated seats. Turns out the manufacturer found it cheaper to just include the hardware anyway rather than differentiate on the production line. What's the big…

People are pushing back against the idea that you can't do whatever you want with a physical thing that you own. You own the heating mechanism in the seats, you own the hardware needed to turn them on, and you own the computer which activates it. If Toyota sold me a car with heated seat mechanisms installed and no switch, they couldn't stop me from installing my own switch. That you might not be able to do what you w…

The thing is, in the long run it doesn't matter whether you are legally allowed to install your own switch. The price manufacturers charge for a car will adjust based on whether they can get revenue from subscriptions or not. If they can't successfully charge subscriptions, base car prices will go up.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#538

Post by pests » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:05 PM UTC

culi wrote: post #435

jcuenod wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I also rotate license plates and repaint my car twice a year.

you're joking, but there's a whole genre of "adversarial fashion"[0][1] dedicated to making clothing that spams these sort of public data recognition services. Hoodies with license plates, face masks with weird facial features, etc. Often optimized against actual neural networks too [0] https://adversarialfashion.com/ [1] https://www.capable.design/

Gait detection renders any of this obsolute sadly.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#539

Post by Faaak » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:06 PM UTC

bonestamp2 wrote: post #463

mgiampapa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

Be careful though, some automakers are tracking software mods and voiding warranties. Example: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/beware-dodge-challenger-mods-do...

I don't think how that could work with the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act ?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#540

Post by okanat » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:07 PM UTC

eimrine wrote: post #352

Can electric car be not a computer-powered car?

You cannot get rid of the entire computerization because of the battery management. Also having some smarts for different terrain conditions generally enable some efficiencies. The hard truth is energy in Lithium ions will never be as energy dense as breaking a hydrocarbon bond. So electrification will always need some computers unlike the efficiencies we can gain from changing the mechanical design of the engine (which can also and did improve with computers).

However as many industries the car companies try to keep the infinite growth premise alive by entirely computerizing all parts and close off any innovation with patents. Just like ICs, in the future nobody will own their car and those who want that will need hundreds of billions to burn to create companies that has no chance of competition.